SeaHorses & Pipefish
- Thread starter rocko918
- Start date
The diehards will say it should not be done (yes it is the same old WC CB agruement), as pipes and horses are closely related, and therefore carry the same potential pathogens.
If you can quarantine them, I have found alligator pipes do get along remarkably well with my CB Reidis, and surprisingly, they don't even bother the newborn fry that get released into the tank (which I thought they would just see as small live food)
This is just my experience, so please don't get on my case about it, I don't recommend it to others, especially without quarantining.
Mark
If you can quarantine them, I have found alligator pipes do get along remarkably well with my CB Reidis, and surprisingly, they don't even bother the newborn fry that get released into the tank (which I thought they would just see as small live food)
This is just my experience, so please don't get on my case about it, I don't recommend it to others, especially without quarantining.
Mark
Just curious where your CB reidi came from, Mlassam?
I'm just wondering if there's a possibility that you're CB reidi could have been CB by the net pen-raising method. I don't know much about Canadian breeders and 'usual' methods for suppliers, but there could be a possibility that the reidi were net pen-raised imports that have been exposed and immune to the pathogens carried by WC pipes.
I'm just wondering if there's a possibility that you're CB reidi could have been CB by the net pen-raising method. I don't know much about Canadian breeders and 'usual' methods for suppliers, but there could be a possibility that the reidi were net pen-raised imports that have been exposed and immune to the pathogens carried by WC pipes.
pledosophy
Active member
Check out this thread for my input on mixing.
Mixing Species Thread
I have started a thread on another forum and have had some good participation. You can find that info here Unfortunatley there is not a case there yet where someone has mixed without any fatalities.
As far as treatments are concerned I would recommend prazipro, fenbendazole, and a couple of fresh water dips prophylatically. I would not treat with antibiotics unless there are symptoms. The above treatments are all for parasites and available for sale at Seahorsesource.com
I would increase your QT time to 6 weeks min. If the pipe comes to you infected it can take 45 days for it to show outward symptoms. If it has an outbreak in your system with your other fish you could be asking for some major problems.
This is a very big misconception.
First off the most common problem with these maricultured (net pen) is parasites. A syngnathid cannot become immune to parasites.
Secondly the issue with the pathogen carried is one of a bacterial nature. There are many different strains of the bacteria so just because a horse was raised in the ocean does not mean it is immune to all the various forms of bacteria in the ocean. The problem with mixing is that there are so many different strains of the bacteria that even WC horses from the same region can carry different strains and when placed in a small system (read aquarium, much smaller then the ocean) have the potential to infect each other.
A syngnathid will be an asymptomatic carrier for the bacteria, but is never completely immune to it. There is a big difference.
When the seahorse is in a weakend state the bacteria begins to release proteins that cause the illness. The bacteria a seahorse has carried for years without ever showing any signs of disease is quite capable of killing it.
For some various reasons mixing syngnathids is more dangerous then mixing other types of fish. I think that the more we begin to understand the mixing issues as well as the temperature issues the more we will be able to see succsessful long term keepers.
I mix WC fish and corals with my seahorses and have never had a disease issue.
Mixing Species Thread
I have started a thread on another forum and have had some good participation. You can find that info here Unfortunatley there is not a case there yet where someone has mixed without any fatalities.
As far as treatments are concerned I would recommend prazipro, fenbendazole, and a couple of fresh water dips prophylatically. I would not treat with antibiotics unless there are symptoms. The above treatments are all for parasites and available for sale at Seahorsesource.com
I would increase your QT time to 6 weeks min. If the pipe comes to you infected it can take 45 days for it to show outward symptoms. If it has an outbreak in your system with your other fish you could be asking for some major problems.
This is a very big misconception.
First off the most common problem with these maricultured (net pen) is parasites. A syngnathid cannot become immune to parasites.
Secondly the issue with the pathogen carried is one of a bacterial nature. There are many different strains of the bacteria so just because a horse was raised in the ocean does not mean it is immune to all the various forms of bacteria in the ocean. The problem with mixing is that there are so many different strains of the bacteria that even WC horses from the same region can carry different strains and when placed in a small system (read aquarium, much smaller then the ocean) have the potential to infect each other.
A syngnathid will be an asymptomatic carrier for the bacteria, but is never completely immune to it. There is a big difference.
When the seahorse is in a weakend state the bacteria begins to release proteins that cause the illness. The bacteria a seahorse has carried for years without ever showing any signs of disease is quite capable of killing it.
For some various reasons mixing syngnathids is more dangerous then mixing other types of fish. I think that the more we begin to understand the mixing issues as well as the temperature issues the more we will be able to see succsessful long term keepers.
I mix WC fish and corals with my seahorses and have never had a disease issue.
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
I've kept a wc jans pipefish with cb reidi with no problems for nearly a year. WHen I did have a problem, I highly doubt it was related to the pipe (I raised the temp to get my clowns to spawn and the reidi developed a bacterial infection).
I also worked in a fish store for a brief while and had several customers keeping seahorses and pipefish together, wc pipes, cb seahorses. Actually, and now that I think of it, we had our "syngnathid display" tank which was 3 cb reidi, 1 banded pipe, three dragon face pipes, and a trumpet fish in a 90 gallon. The only problem we had was when one of my idiot coworker put large hermits in there which dined on the dragonfaced pipes before I realized it.
I know the tank was set up with these fish for a considerable time before I started, and I was at that store for nearly a year. The seahorses, the banded pipe, and the trumpetfish were all in there before I started. We added more seahorses but they ended up selling straight out of the tank. (No, stupid boss, that's the display tank and you're the one that made the rule we don't sell out of display tanks!!!)
I'm not saying mixing wc pipes and cb seahorses is the best idea, or even a good idea - however, based on my observations is much safer than wc and cb seahorses, and generally not too risky IF you follow proper husbandry including quarantine and deworming.
I also worked in a fish store for a brief while and had several customers keeping seahorses and pipefish together, wc pipes, cb seahorses. Actually, and now that I think of it, we had our "syngnathid display" tank which was 3 cb reidi, 1 banded pipe, three dragon face pipes, and a trumpet fish in a 90 gallon. The only problem we had was when one of my idiot coworker put large hermits in there which dined on the dragonfaced pipes before I realized it.
I know the tank was set up with these fish for a considerable time before I started, and I was at that store for nearly a year. The seahorses, the banded pipe, and the trumpetfish were all in there before I started. We added more seahorses but they ended up selling straight out of the tank. (No, stupid boss, that's the display tank and you're the one that made the rule we don't sell out of display tanks!!!)
I'm not saying mixing wc pipes and cb seahorses is the best idea, or even a good idea - however, based on my observations is much safer than wc and cb seahorses, and generally not too risky IF you follow proper husbandry including quarantine and deworming.
pledosophy
Active member
IMO there is no more risk of mixing a WC and a CB then mixing a CB and a CB assuming the WC has been treated with the appropriate anti parasitic medicine. JMO.
km133688
New member
in the end, it is your tank, and you need to have fun with it. If there are reasons for mixing the two (whatever you decide is a good reason), then certainly go ahead and do so. Its no sense to keep a reef if you are not enjoying it or are constantly frustrated by "restrictions" the keep you from doing what want.
In my travels on RC and other web sites, I have read many articles. My impressions from this voluminous reading I did before purchasing my first seahorses is this:
There is a commong belief that a hierarchy of success does indeed exist with these animals: CB, Pend Raised, Wild Caught.
It seems commonly felt that this hierarchy reflects the probability of overall success, as well as the likely hood of any individual animal containing some malady (disease/parasite), and its relative risk to other related tank inhabitants, upon its introduction to a captive system.
There is strong support behind the belief that WC AND PEN RAISED horses always contain parasites and pathogens and that these WILL be transfered to existing tank inhabitants upon introduction The opposite is also believed, which is that True CB seahorses contain no parasites or pathogens and thus should not generally be mixed with Pen Raised of WC unless you are willing to infect the CB specimans with whatever affects the other animals, or you are willing to apply and good quarentine practice. This I guess tells us why people support the other beliefs listed above.
THE ARE NO CONTROLED STUDIES that I have seen, to provide evidence for or against these common beliefs. However, the amount of anectdotal evidence (experiences of fish keepers, vendors, and breeders), is large, and there is supporting crossover evidence from informal studies on other species of fish most notably the Banggai Cardinalfish. In the end, what I have read suggests these beliefs are pretty much accepted as rules of thumb.
As for me... I accept these beliefs too based on my personal experiences.
Point of Clarification: The terms CB (captive bread), Pen Raised, and WC (wild caught) are all loose in their application. Many people consider Pen Raised to be CB as was pointed out by some knowledegeable commenter earlier in this discussion. I don't. Indeed, the term Pen Raised itself is vague as it has two basic variations: 1) fish raised in nets in the sea, 2) and fish raised in indoor pools filled with filtered seawater. In all cases however, the common denominator is the use of real seawater (weather filtered of not). Most seahorses sold are CB are in fact some form of Pen Raised. To my knowledge there are only two breeders in the US who can claim to sell TRUE CAPTIVE BRED horses (multiple generations of horses never exposed to real seawater nor exposed to other WC animals, and thus the parasites and pathogens them might contain). At least one of these breeders keeps a RC handle and participates in RC and Seahorse.org dicsussions regularly. This aint' no place for a sales pitch so if you want to know who it is, send me a PM.
Good luck, be responsible, but also have fun with your tank. Sorry to be so long winded with what many may think is just stating the obvious. Kevin
In my travels on RC and other web sites, I have read many articles. My impressions from this voluminous reading I did before purchasing my first seahorses is this:
There is a commong belief that a hierarchy of success does indeed exist with these animals: CB, Pend Raised, Wild Caught.
It seems commonly felt that this hierarchy reflects the probability of overall success, as well as the likely hood of any individual animal containing some malady (disease/parasite), and its relative risk to other related tank inhabitants, upon its introduction to a captive system.
There is strong support behind the belief that WC AND PEN RAISED horses always contain parasites and pathogens and that these WILL be transfered to existing tank inhabitants upon introduction The opposite is also believed, which is that True CB seahorses contain no parasites or pathogens and thus should not generally be mixed with Pen Raised of WC unless you are willing to infect the CB specimans with whatever affects the other animals, or you are willing to apply and good quarentine practice. This I guess tells us why people support the other beliefs listed above.
THE ARE NO CONTROLED STUDIES that I have seen, to provide evidence for or against these common beliefs. However, the amount of anectdotal evidence (experiences of fish keepers, vendors, and breeders), is large, and there is supporting crossover evidence from informal studies on other species of fish most notably the Banggai Cardinalfish. In the end, what I have read suggests these beliefs are pretty much accepted as rules of thumb.
As for me... I accept these beliefs too based on my personal experiences.
Point of Clarification: The terms CB (captive bread), Pen Raised, and WC (wild caught) are all loose in their application. Many people consider Pen Raised to be CB as was pointed out by some knowledegeable commenter earlier in this discussion. I don't. Indeed, the term Pen Raised itself is vague as it has two basic variations: 1) fish raised in nets in the sea, 2) and fish raised in indoor pools filled with filtered seawater. In all cases however, the common denominator is the use of real seawater (weather filtered of not). Most seahorses sold are CB are in fact some form of Pen Raised. To my knowledge there are only two breeders in the US who can claim to sell TRUE CAPTIVE BRED horses (multiple generations of horses never exposed to real seawater nor exposed to other WC animals, and thus the parasites and pathogens them might contain). At least one of these breeders keeps a RC handle and participates in RC and Seahorse.org dicsussions regularly. This aint' no place for a sales pitch so if you want to know who it is, send me a PM.
Good luck, be responsible, but also have fun with your tank. Sorry to be so long winded with what many may think is just stating the obvious. Kevin
pledosophy
Active member
IMO strong research has been performed and documented and is the basis of many of the "rules" we have aquired. Try google. Many University's have performed several studies, you justwon't find them on disscusion forums.
Also IMO just because a facility uses seawater does not meant there horses are now in the Maricultured classification. Many facilities use Seawater and filter it heavily before using it in there systems. I do not think this is a bad practice.
Also IMO just because a facility uses seawater does not meant there horses are now in the Maricultured classification. Many facilities use Seawater and filter it heavily before using it in there systems. I do not think this is a bad practice.
km133688
New member
Excuse me pledosophy but I believe I said I did lots of reading online. I didn't see a conspicuously large number of University studies on these general subjects. To what study or studies were you refereing?
Filtering water is certainly much better than not filtering it.
but "heavily filtered", what does that mean. The reading I have done didn't impress me as describing anything like "heavily" filtered. The papers I read on seahorse farming did desribe the filter that was done I guess anyone can get online and read it for themselves if they are so inclined and make up their own minds. The description of filtering they would be looking for should give a micron rating which can be used to describe what kind of parasites and pathogens would be removed.
In any event, I posted these definitions so that we would all be able to talk in this thread to a common understanding of terms. I hope our discussions here will make what other people read easier to grasp because of it.
Thanks, Kevin
Filtering water is certainly much better than not filtering it.
but "heavily filtered", what does that mean. The reading I have done didn't impress me as describing anything like "heavily" filtered. The papers I read on seahorse farming did desribe the filter that was done I guess anyone can get online and read it for themselves if they are so inclined and make up their own minds. The description of filtering they would be looking for should give a micron rating which can be used to describe what kind of parasites and pathogens would be removed.
In any event, I posted these definitions so that we would all be able to talk in this thread to a common understanding of terms. I hope our discussions here will make what other people read easier to grasp because of it.
Thanks, Kevin
pledosophy
Active member
What do you consider "lots" it's a relative term? Perhaps if your not finding the articles we can help you with your research methods.
I have found and read hundreds probably closer to thousands of paper/articles written in relation to syngnathids. I am surprised you are having problems finding any. Leads me to believe it is your method of search that is faulty.
If your looking for more general articles try seahorse. If your looking for a little more "depth" try syngnathid. Or a combination of words relating back to your topic. Hippocampus is also useful in getting hits for scientifc articles but better IME to couple it with a species name to avoid wading through all the topica about the hippocampus area of the brain.
Sites like Blackwell Synergy and Molecular Ecology are also great sources of information.
IME there are not a lot of papers on the general topics, how boring would that be. That is not what research papers are on. They are on very specific topics. Certain nutrition aspects, breeding of certain species, wild behaviours, different info on different species. This can all be very easily expanded into zooplankton movements and how it affects the amount of present bacteria in a region. Types of algaes. Various bacteria and parasites. Naturally occuring hybridization. Collecting laws and rights. Etc Etc.
There is really quite a bit of info out there. By saying thee is no controlled studies you are either showing your ignorance in that area and asking for help I would assume, or deliberately disrespecting the volume of work that has been accomplished.
There are quite a few different facilities out there and they each have methods unique to themselves. IMO the micron rating should be 1 and a larger UV should be incorporated depending on tank size. There are very succsessfull breeders who filter to 25 microns and use UV's but IMHO the smaller micron mesh is more effective at reducing the amount of debris before it goes through the UV. Thee is even one very popular breeder that I know of that uses unfiltered seawater and only filters the water on the way back out to the ocean as to avoid introducing nonnative bacteria into the water.
Using RODI water is not really a cost efficent way of running a breeding facility, I do not know of a facility that does this large scale, but I have very limited experience in that realm of the hobby.
IMHO there is nothing wrong with using seawater if it is treated. It does not make a facilities product less desireable.
km133688
New member
I could be showing ignorance. It seems common to me on many levels.
I have also not been to the Blackwell Synergy nor Molecular Ecology. I'll check them out, thanks for the heads up. You are ofcourse right about "Hippocampus" causing search problems; I found that out in a hurry.
If you have specific web addresses for specific papers you think are an interesting read, please forward their locations; I'd want to check them out.
On the flip side, I spent maybe 200 hours looking over stuff on the internet before making my purchase. I was able to do this 9 months ago as I was working a set of computer jobs that required round the clock availability at the work site. I slept on a pool float next to a space heater under my desk for six weeks. It was brutal, and amazingly boring having to wake up every two hours to see that everything was going right. I saw little of my family during this period but it did give me plenty of time for doing research on my pending acquisitions. Best of all, I get paid overtime so I was able get a pool and build a deck for this summer (woohoo!).
In this 200 hours I found papers on commercial rearing of various animals using filtered seawater: clams, seahorses, and some other stuff too. All used nets and micron filters as filtration mechanisms. The ones I recall best were those that were presented as step-by-step plans to commercial rearing. They covered technical material with an emphasis on what worked and was also cost effective. As an example, one discussed the need to have redundant pumps intake as failure of these pumps pulling in the seawater was disasterous and predictable, and of the need to routinely clean the grill plates covering pump intakes to keep pumps from overheating.
Maybe the material I found is of a more common order than what you know of, but if so, please forward me some links if you have them. I have not read 1000 papers/articles as you have. I'd say maybe 100 for me. I will try some of the additional search terms you have suggested.
I would agree that synthetic seawater is expensive and would be a good reason why most breeders don't use it. But although using flitered seawater may be a more practical and cost effective means of raising seahorses and other creatures, and the quality of product is high, I am sticking with localy bred seahorses raised in 100% synthetic seawater and not exposed to WC brethren.
Wish me luck in my searches, and thanks for your continued conversation. RC is so cool when it puts heads together.
I have also not been to the Blackwell Synergy nor Molecular Ecology. I'll check them out, thanks for the heads up. You are ofcourse right about "Hippocampus" causing search problems; I found that out in a hurry.
If you have specific web addresses for specific papers you think are an interesting read, please forward their locations; I'd want to check them out.
On the flip side, I spent maybe 200 hours looking over stuff on the internet before making my purchase. I was able to do this 9 months ago as I was working a set of computer jobs that required round the clock availability at the work site. I slept on a pool float next to a space heater under my desk for six weeks. It was brutal, and amazingly boring having to wake up every two hours to see that everything was going right. I saw little of my family during this period but it did give me plenty of time for doing research on my pending acquisitions. Best of all, I get paid overtime so I was able get a pool and build a deck for this summer (woohoo!).
In this 200 hours I found papers on commercial rearing of various animals using filtered seawater: clams, seahorses, and some other stuff too. All used nets and micron filters as filtration mechanisms. The ones I recall best were those that were presented as step-by-step plans to commercial rearing. They covered technical material with an emphasis on what worked and was also cost effective. As an example, one discussed the need to have redundant pumps intake as failure of these pumps pulling in the seawater was disasterous and predictable, and of the need to routinely clean the grill plates covering pump intakes to keep pumps from overheating.
Maybe the material I found is of a more common order than what you know of, but if so, please forward me some links if you have them. I have not read 1000 papers/articles as you have. I'd say maybe 100 for me. I will try some of the additional search terms you have suggested.
I would agree that synthetic seawater is expensive and would be a good reason why most breeders don't use it. But although using flitered seawater may be a more practical and cost effective means of raising seahorses and other creatures, and the quality of product is high, I am sticking with localy bred seahorses raised in 100% synthetic seawater and not exposed to WC brethren.
Wish me luck in my searches, and thanks for your continued conversation. RC is so cool when it puts heads together.
