Secondary Infections that come with Ich

[RxMike]

Hello list

I am in the process of QTing my Achilles tang with Quick Cure. I know.. I know there are only 3 proven methods for erradicating Ich. I happen to be a health care professional and without offending those with much more experience than I we know that there are advantages and disadvantages of all medications. I am having success dosing the Quick Cure 2 drops per gallon every other day. This fish was very sick with a bad case of ICH. It is making great strides with the current regimen. I also do decent water changes on off quick cure treatment days and do a fresh water dip if the fish seems healthy enough to tolerate. This seems to work for me. Again I know the experts will say there are only three proven methods for eradicating ich for which Quick Cure is not one. I treat the fish for a total of 3 weeks. It then stays in the QT for another three weeks after treatment to make sure no relapse.

I have come across secondary bacterial infections for which I have also treated the specimen with maramycin plus. I have followed the directions treating maramycin plus on alternating days with the Quick cure. I know this sounds like alot of chemical to expose a sick fish to. I really see no other choice. If the fish is not eating due to a bacterial infection it is at risk to becoming to weak to fight off the infections. In my mind the infection needs to be addressed in order to prevent overwhelming infection leading to a shock like state. I think keeping excellent water quality and treating aggressively to knock out infections makes a lot of sense. In my experience when infections are left untreated it is very hard to regain lost ground. I am curious as to what others think.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Quick Cure is a combination of formaldehyde and Mal. green. Their packaging doesn't even claim to cure Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich).( You're in the medical profession, my background is law. When a company does not claim to cure something (and a big-money something) There's a good reason; it doesn't work. In SW; formaldehyde is usually used at a bath or dip;fish can't take the weeks of a strong formaldehyde solution that is strong enough to kill ich in all of its life stages.

I think you may be in the middle of the typical ich cycle where ich seems to disappear for a while. This is common, even when fish aren't being treated at all. There may not be much visible ich; but ich cysts are present and getting ready to release the next generation. Temporary reprieves from ich happen all the time. If you have no ich for 6 months or so; then claim victory. IMO & IME; almost all secondary infections are temporary and an ich-free fish can handle them. I use antibiotics only as a last resort. Our list of decent antibiotics is very short and I think bacteria strains with bacteria resistance are inevitable---if not already here.

FWIW: Since I've been active on this forum; I'd guess I have heard reports on this product at least a few dozen times. I cannot remember a single report that said the stuff eradicated ich....meaning ich was still gone in 6+ months. One positive note: I think Quick Cure is a good med for brooklynella.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Concurrent ich and bacterial infection is real PITA.

This is where using LR in QT is particularly unwieldy.

I always want to us UV against bacterial infection while eradicating ich. Incidents of bacterial infection during ich eradication has dropped by a great deal and never virulent to affect all in a tank.

Antibiotics harms nitrification bacteria to various extent, always significant if not deadly.

When I have bags of crushed coral cycled separately, I can use a portion for a duration.

The alleviating point is the antibiotic treatment is short, just a few days, works or death.

After a few days, if the bacterial infection is cured, I can put the bacteria back in.

That is why numbleness in nitrification application is so handy, and why LR is such a bad choice for medium of filtration in QT.

 

[keithhays]

Hello list

I am in the process of QTing my Achilles tang with Quick Cure. I know.. I know there are only 3 proven methods for erradicating Ich. I happen to be a health care professional and without offending those with much more experience than I we know that there are advantages and disadvantages of all medications. I am having success dosing the Quick Cure 2 drops per gallon every other day. This fish was very sick with a bad case of ICH. It is making great strides with the current regimen. I also do decent water changes on off quick cure treatment days and do a fresh water dip if the fish seems healthy enough to tolerate. This seems to work for me. Again I know the experts will say there are only three proven methods for eradicating ich for which Quick Cure is not one. I treat the fish for a total of 3 weeks. It then stays in the QT for another three weeks after treatment to make sure no relapse.

I have come across secondary bacterial infections for which I have also treated the specimen with maramycin plus. I have followed the directions treating maramycin plus on alternating days with the Quick cure. I know this sounds like alot of chemical to expose a sick fish to. I really see no other choice. If the fish is not eating due to a bacterial infection it is at risk to becoming to weak to fight off the infections. In my mind the infection needs to be addressed in order to prevent overwhelming infection leading to a shock like state. I think keeping excellent water quality and treating aggressively to knock out infections makes a lot of sense. In my experience when infections are left untreated it is very hard to regain lost ground. I am curious as to what others think.

I have seen the Quick Cure for Ich packaging and it most certainly claims to cure ich.. in 2 days no less.
This is not going to happen. I don't know this product short of its packaging, but I do know RID ICH PLUS by Kordon which would have the correct combination of Formalin and Malachite green along with the correct time frame for dosage for ich and resulting fungal infections. It doesn't take weeks to see the effects of an effective treatment. You should see a difference by the next day, but they will be in treatment for over a month starting when you start the correct treatment and then in quarantine for twice that long.

If you end up with a bacterial infection after that, I would then dose the
maramycin plus. If you need this, don't mix it with the first medications. Don't do any of this in your display tank. If for no other reason the fish need to get out of the display tank to get away from the ich.

I have used the rid ich before on fish that were in horrible trouble with ich so I know it works.

 

[MrTuskfish]

The quick cure ingredient list I found when goggled said "ich"; as this is primarily a FW product; I assume they mean FW ich. SW ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) is not the same parasite. Products that claim to cure "marine ich usually use the scientific name.

 

[keithhays]

The quick cure ingredient list I found when goggled said "ich"; as this is primarily a FW product; I assume they mean FW ich. SW ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) is not the same parasite. Products that claim to cure "marine ich usually use the scientific name.

I think who ever puts out Quick Cure has different product lines this specific says "marine and fresh water" ich:
http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store...lypage-43846&gclid=CMLRm-vCkLUCFQWonQodPWgA0A

I am with you on the whole thing is crap, but as far as the marketing goes, they are marketing it for marine.

 

[MrTuskfish]

O.K.; but I'll agree with your product description, though. It is a good product to keep on hand, because the formalin it contains is the only brooklynella cure I know of and Formalin (formaldehyde) is getting hard to find. Brook is such a fast killer that you'd better have it on hand. It does not work with ich though.

 

[keithhays]

O.K.; but I'll agree with your product description, though. It is a good product to keep on hand, because the formalin it contains is the only brooklynella cure I know of and Formalin (formaldehyde) is getting hard to find. Brook is such a fast killer that you'd better have it on hand. It does not work with ich though.

I usually stop once people agree with me, but formalin does work with all but resistant forms of ich with the correct dosage and treatment time. I have used it and it works. There is a resistant form of Cryptocaryon which is resistant to both copper and formalin. If you try those and they don't work, you would have to use Quinine Sulfate.

 

[george915]

There is a resistant form of Cryptocaryon which is resistant to both copper and formalin.

source of this statement please. This is the first time I heard about a strain of Cryptocaryon irritans being resistant to copper.

 

[keithhays]

This is one article that I found on it with a google search:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/newich.htm

 

[keithhays]

Good paper on just normal ich:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

 

[sandwi54]

Quick Cure with the ingredients of formalin and malachite green is an excellent treatment for freshwater ich, or Ichthyophthirius Multifilis. Saltwater ich is Cryptocaryon Irritans which is more resistant to formalin, which is why formalin is not a recommended treatment for Cryptocaryon. Copper is the correct treatment for Cryptocaryon.

I absolutely hate the name "ich" being used for both freshwater and saltwater, as these two organisms are completely different and require different medications. The "ich" claimed on Quick Cure packaging refers to Ichthyophthirius Multifilis, not Cryptocaryon Irritans.

 

[keithhays]

Quick Cure with the ingredients of formalin and malachite green is an excellent treatment for freshwater ich, or Ichthyophthirius Multifilis. Saltwater ich is Cryptocaryon Irritans which is more resistant to formalin, which is why formalin is not a recommended treatment for Cryptocaryon. Copper is the correct treatment for Cryptocaryon.

I absolutely hate the name "ich" being used for both freshwater and saltwater, as these two organisms are completely different and require different medications. The "ich" claimed on Quick Cure packaging refers to Ichthyophthirius Multifilis, not Cryptocaryon Irritans.

While it is a fact that there is confusion because the naming, there are also major brands which carry two different versions of the combination to treat Ichthyophthirius Multifilis versus Cryptocaryon Irritans and major online vendors who have those brands listed as treating both. It is the branding from companies like Quick Cure which causes incorrect usage, dosing, treatment times, and therefore a bad outcomes when using it. This is what gives the appearance that Cryptocaryon Irritans is more resistant to the formalin/malachite green combination. There is also quite a bit of misinformation floating around or misinterpreted. For instance, the formalin/malachite green combination is quite frequently used to treat a display tank because of the statements by other vendors that it does not harm invertebrates. While this might be true, I don't know, because I have never attempt to treat a display tank with because it very likely would be impossible to figure out dosage and all of the different mechanisms in a complete system that would simply filter out the treatment. The correct combination, dosage, and treatment times in the correct environment will however eradicate Cryptocaryon Irritans. Copper is another treatment with all the same information problems, plus some, which also works to eradicate it.

 

[MrTuskfish]

This is one article that I found on it with a google search:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/newich.htm

This article makes the rounds fairly often. The product they mention is Crypto-Pro....Quinine Sulfate. QS has worked sometimes; but according to three different marine tech-types; its very hard to keep in suspension and impossible to test for. Maintaining proper dosage is next to impossible.

 

[MrTuskfish]

^^^^^Too late to edit^^^^^

I know some god hobbyists on this forum have used Quinine Sulfate successfully. I tried it twice, on two fish with visible ich. It did not work for me. I kept fish in the med for 4 weeks and fish were moved to a 2nd QT; ich returned both times. I know these are just anecdotal accounts and there could be some little tweaks that help the process, there are with copper. I'm trying another quinine drug now, Chloroquine phosphate, another of the quinine drugs. I'm treating a Golden Semilarvatus Butterflyfish; a special order from a little LFS for a customer. So far, so good. Some very good aquarists have had good results with CP. Personally, I'm just not comfortable with meds that won't let me test the drug level in suspension. Maybe not the big deal I think it is. That may just be me, but I'll post on b0bab0ey's thread.

 

[keithhays]

This article makes the rounds fairly often. The product they mention is Crypto-Pro....Quinine Sulfate. QS has worked sometimes; but according to three different marine tech-types; its very hard to keep in suspension and impossible to test for. Maintaining proper dosage is next to impossible.

I have seen this in relation to resistent ich i.e. the other two options have not worked. The only issue is that the resistent form would probably kill the fish before you figured out that you need to use it. I have a suspicion you might have to be good with a microscope to make use of it.

 

[keithhays]

^^^^^Too late to edit^^^^^

I know some god hobbyists on this forum have used Quinine Sulfate successfully. I tried it twice, on two fish with visible ich. It did not work for me. I kept fish in the med for 4 weeks and fish were moved to a 2nd QT; ich returned both times. I know these are just anecdotal accounts and there could be some little tweaks that help the process, there are with copper. I'm trying another quinine drug now, Chloroquine phosphate, another of the quinine drugs. I'm treating a Golden Semilarvatus Butterflyfish; a special order from a little LFS for a customer. So far, so good. Some very good aquarists have had good results with CP. Personally, I'm just not comfortable with meds that won't let me test the drug level in suspension. Maybe not the big deal I think it is. That may just be me, but I'll post on b0bab0ey's thread.

I did see that on the site that sells this particular product that you should not follow the instructions on the container for treating ich.

 

[caribfan]

Just my 2 Cents, but I haven't found anything that beats SeaChem Cupramine for C. Irritans. Copper is relatively easy to test for and I have used the SeaChem product on a number of "copper sensitive" species, including a Semilarvatus, a Black Dog Face Puffer and a Moorish Idol with absolutely no issues.

I've been C. Irritans free for the better part of 2 years, which is about as long as my tank has been up. Crap, find some wood to knock on.

I guess that was more like a buck twenty.

 

[keithhays]

Just my 2 Cents, but I haven't found anything that beats SeaChem Cupramine for C. Irritans. Copper is relatively easy to test for and I have used the SeaChem product on a number of "copper sensitive" species, including a Semilarvatus, a Black Dog Face Puffer and a Moorish Idol with absolutely no issues.

I've been C. Irritans free for the better part of 2 years, which is about as long as my tank has been up. Crap, find some wood to knock on.

I guess that was more like a buck twenty.

I have been looking at their products for setting a new quarantine system regimen; they seem to put a lot of science behind their products as opposed to just throwing something out on the market. Though I may keep some stuff in stock that they don't carry as well.

 

[sandwi54]

I must have treated at least 50 ich-infested fish with Cupramine, including puffers, and it has never failed once.