Should not be Kept in Captivity?
- Thread starter wpnorton
- Start date
matttaylor
Jeeper in my free time
While i can see the point of the list, i think that it is outdated a little. I've seen that list before (about 10 years ago) and at that time most aquarium keepers had smaller tanks. They do however make some valid points especially about toxic and symbiotic animals.
With that being said, we have to realize that that list is targeted towards new and midrange hobbyists. Those of us that have years of experience and are willing to dedicate the required resources to "special needs" animals, are the exceptions. Case in point, that list says that cuttlefish should never be kept. There is a person in the bay area that is able to breed them. Should he live life according to that list, or ignore it or continue succeeding and making discoveries where others have failed? Also, years ago most people stayed clear of sps corals because we were told they never survive more than a few months. Look at the hobby now, there are more sps tanks than softy tanks. To each his own, but that list is a great guide for newbies, and does provide some valued information for more experienced folks.
With that being said, we have to realize that that list is targeted towards new and midrange hobbyists. Those of us that have years of experience and are willing to dedicate the required resources to "special needs" animals, are the exceptions. Case in point, that list says that cuttlefish should never be kept. There is a person in the bay area that is able to breed them. Should he live life according to that list, or ignore it or continue succeeding and making discoveries where others have failed? Also, years ago most people stayed clear of sps corals because we were told they never survive more than a few months. Look at the hobby now, there are more sps tanks than softy tanks. To each his own, but that list is a great guide for newbies, and does provide some valued information for more experienced folks.
dots
Premium Member
Its pretty grim to find out the mortality rates and natural life spans of some of the things we keep, or try.
But we are not the worst of it, in the Phillipines and Indonesia, as I was reading in an old Coral magazine, that they think of aquariums as "decoration" to be replenished weekly or monthly like flower arrangments.
Understandably so, with the money for the equipment, availability and most of the literature in English as the article stated, its no wonder. It said that one aquarist was "proud" to keep an LPS alive for two weeks. Things are changing though.
I always hope that responsible LFS inform people before potential purchases and find out if thier knowledge base and set up can allow such specie with poor track records, such as anenome.
I also hope we head that advice and stay away from the doomed to die species if we can't care for it.
On the flip side, how big was that list 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago? We have to remember, we are learning everyday and through "some" trial and error as long as it is not in vain, leads to learning how to keep all indefinatly. All Acros would have been on that list 20 or so years ago, because we couldn't figure out how to keep them.
Which is the whole point for us being here, to share our experiences, failures and successes so we can build on our collective knowledge in an effort to not repeat the same mistakes over and over and over.
But we are not the worst of it, in the Phillipines and Indonesia, as I was reading in an old Coral magazine, that they think of aquariums as "decoration" to be replenished weekly or monthly like flower arrangments.
Understandably so, with the money for the equipment, availability and most of the literature in English as the article stated, its no wonder. It said that one aquarist was "proud" to keep an LPS alive for two weeks. Things are changing though.
I always hope that responsible LFS inform people before potential purchases and find out if thier knowledge base and set up can allow such specie with poor track records, such as anenome.
I also hope we head that advice and stay away from the doomed to die species if we can't care for it.
On the flip side, how big was that list 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago? We have to remember, we are learning everyday and through "some" trial and error as long as it is not in vain, leads to learning how to keep all indefinatly. All Acros would have been on that list 20 or so years ago, because we couldn't figure out how to keep them.
Which is the whole point for us being here, to share our experiences, failures and successes so we can build on our collective knowledge in an effort to not repeat the same mistakes over and over and over.
Twisted
Premium Member
Sounds like an inflated list to me.
When it list "Dangerous" and fish that can poison or injure a hobbyist.
They should have just listed all tangs, those tail barbs hurt!
And aggresive? Heh, where were all the pseudochromis, dottybacks, etc...
A lot of the fish they listed as should not be kept because they stress, wasn't really legit in my opinion, some of those fish are brought in to the stores routinly with limited loss compared to others.
When it list "Dangerous" and fish that can poison or injure a hobbyist.
They should have just listed all tangs, those tail barbs hurt!
And aggresive? Heh, where were all the pseudochromis, dottybacks, etc...
A lot of the fish they listed as should not be kept because they stress, wasn't really legit in my opinion, some of those fish are brought in to the stores routinly with limited loss compared to others.
yoboyjdizz
Active member
Yea i agree as that list in a little out of date as i currently have 5 fish in my tank thats on that list.
dots
Premium Member
If it is a bogus list, what do you think is the underlying motivation of someone to take the time to create it?
What do you think is the ultimate goal if this person had thier way?
Is it for ulta conservation of all aquarium specie....ie: they despise the thought of any collecting?
Do you think it could be aimed at limiting the total disregard for the chance of survival when one is a super newbie (multiplied by thousands of times), attempting to care for specie "way out of thier league"?
Or are these thier personal favorites and want to corner the market all to themselves?
Even if it is BS, what do you think the agenda is here, that is what sparks my interest with lists such as these.
What do you think is the ultimate goal if this person had thier way?
Is it for ulta conservation of all aquarium specie....ie: they despise the thought of any collecting?
Do you think it could be aimed at limiting the total disregard for the chance of survival when one is a super newbie (multiplied by thousands of times), attempting to care for specie "way out of thier league"?
Or are these thier personal favorites and want to corner the market all to themselves?
Even if it is BS, what do you think the agenda is here, that is what sparks my interest with lists such as these.
Twisted
Premium Member
I would venture to guess it is the treehuggers of the sea targeting the fish they are most likely to beable to show reason for limiting thier collection.
I mean if they had said Occelaris clowns or something, nobody would care, enough are bred in captivity these days.
But who really knows, I mean if you look at recent history, what did it take to put millions of people out of work due to a stupid spotted owl, that I doubt even the conservationist cared about, they were just looking for a way to stop, or slow down the lumber harvesting.
I mean if they had said Occelaris clowns or something, nobody would care, enough are bred in captivity these days.
But who really knows, I mean if you look at recent history, what did it take to put millions of people out of work due to a stupid spotted owl, that I doubt even the conservationist cared about, they were just looking for a way to stop, or slow down the lumber harvesting.
dots
Premium Member
The timber industry was in decline way before the Spotted Owl. Modernization and higher effeciencies, combined with more "stable" companies like PL and Simpson buying out and pushing out the little guys, in the end those two owned all the property.
I worked in lumberyards while plugging away at College of the Redwoods (raised in Arcata) for a number of years, its a cut throat business.
But your correct, it was a focal point that they fixated on. Along with that pepper spay incident, people chaining themselves under trucks, and the two head honchos blowing up thier own car in the Bay Area only added fuel to the fire. If I remember right, they found that bird nesting all over the place. But nothing kills me more than to see a clear cut bald patch.
The world is different and we do have an impact with our actions. A middle ground needs to be found.......where that is, is what all the fighting is about.
I worked in lumberyards while plugging away at College of the Redwoods (raised in Arcata) for a number of years, its a cut throat business.
But your correct, it was a focal point that they fixated on. Along with that pepper spay incident, people chaining themselves under trucks, and the two head honchos blowing up thier own car in the Bay Area only added fuel to the fire. If I remember right, they found that bird nesting all over the place. But nothing kills me more than to see a clear cut bald patch.
The world is different and we do have an impact with our actions. A middle ground needs to be found.......where that is, is what all the fighting is about.
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wpnorton
New member
Or...It could have been valid ten years ago, but due to advances in the hobby, it's just not accurate these days. I would tend to think that's a more probable scenario than deliberate babble from tree hugging Liberals. (No offense to you tree huggers out there
)
BTW...Do you know where your milk comes from. I had no idea you could buy organic milk from Petaluma, retrieved from clover fed happy cows for $8 a gallon, versus new jersey milk trucked across the country and sold at Ralphs for only $4 a gallon. Who Knew?
)BTW...Do you know where your milk comes from. I had no idea you could buy organic milk from Petaluma, retrieved from clover fed happy cows for $8 a gallon, versus new jersey milk trucked across the country and sold at Ralphs for only $4 a gallon. Who Knew?
cortez marine
In Memoriam
And ....
I have an answer on some of this.
The chevron butterfly, chaetodon trifascialis was just written up as "a coveted target" of the aquarium trade by a researcher in James Cook University.
This is SIMPLY NOT TRUE...but was used to anchor the relevance of the research saying that if the reefs go...so do valueable and charasmatic fishes like this species.
Now, I was just in Queensland as the "research" came out and asked the 'MALIGIGNED' local fish collectors about it.
Not only to they not collect the chevron butt...they specifically exclude it as a non marketable species. They never collect it because the trade already "self bans" it as an obligate coral feeder that has no market value at all except for those trying to get some to do some research on.
I myself, when working with divers all over the world have never seen it targeted, never wanted, never coveted and never sold.
I am sure however, that to a small degree, the Philippines does export it as an "assorted butterflyfish" for the lowest of the prices of butterflies. And to be sure, some very cheap fish hunting store will no doubt buy a few.
Now what was the underlying motivation to conspire to place the fish up high on the alter amd highlight it so?
Purely self oriented reasons, Im sure.
Now how many times does this syndrome occur and "outsiders" get a hold of it...and run with it?
How many times does an exaggeration, a wrong notion, a fib if it were get converted into ECO-mythology?
How much of the shallow, simplistic, knee-jerk environmentalism that we see today get into the mainstream dialogue?
There are real issues to be sure, but they are not served well by the bogus ones that dilute and pollute them.
Obligate coral feeders are hard to argue with for inclusion into the mainstream aquarium trade but to then include species of which someone somewhere had a prejudice with is silly and ruins the validity of a proposed unsuitable species list.
Steve
