Shrinking mushrooms

[jskaras]

Posted in general forum without response. I thought I'd give it a shot here with the shroom experts....... here goes.....

I need help with shrinking mushrooms. My tank is 2 years old with it's inhabitants being 7 yrs old (got it from a friend) I have not been a fan of water changes since all has been going well without them (knock on wood). However, I recently noticed that my mushrooms have been shrinking. Favia has receded a bit as well but bubble coral and tongue coral are thriving. No problems with fish or invertebrates. I phased in a new set of bulbs without any difference. I found my alkalinity to be low so I began adding SeaChem Reef Builder again without much difference. Finally began doing water changes since most of the reef police on this forum blame lack of water changes as the first culprit. So I started changing out 18-20 g every couple of days again with no significant visual difference. Finally tried checking the alkalinity of the replacement seawater and found it to be 6.4 dKH (2.29 meq/l). So it appears I have been chasing my tail by adding replacement water with a lower buffering capacity than the water I have been removing. Is this typical?
Tank parameters:
160 G reef with Coralife salt
Wet/dry filter 20G
250 lbs live rock with excellent coralline growth
100 lbs live sand
4 VHO 48" on 7 am off 7pm
3 175W metal halides 15,000K beginning at 10am sequentially on and phasing off by 3:30-4 pm
Moonlight bulbs at night
76 degrees chiller controlled
Pan world main pump 1100G/hr
4 maxi jet 900's on wavemaster controller
pH 8.2 am-8.35 max afternoon
SG 1.023
Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0
Phos 0
ammonia 0
calcium 500
All test kits are Salifert and not expired
current dKH 7.0 (1.71 meq/l)
one Scopas Tang, one neon blennie, one clown, one domino damsel
one sandsifting star, 5 brittle stars, one cleaner shrimp, lots of red and blue leg crabs, 5 emerald crabs, lots of snails.
Supplemental Ca++ Tech A/B
RO/DI replacement water

Should I just keep adding buffer and see what happens? Patience is not a problem here. Been watching the slow decline for about 2 -3 months. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[GobyJohnKenobi]

Do you find that your mushrooms expand less or look a bit shrivelled immediately after you do a water change? And if so, do they seem to expand a bit more each day until the next water change, and then the cycle repeats?

I was in the same boat with pH/alk swings after water changes, and that is how my mushrooms always reacted.

Your calcium at 500 is a bit too high. You might want to stop dosing it until it returns to the 420-440 mark. The high calcium might also explain your troubles with alk, 1.71 meq is painfully low. Keep dosing for alk until you are back in the 4.5-5 meq range. I'd dose at about half the suggested rate every day, twice a day, morning before work and evening after work.

You're using a 2 part solution, and probably need to use alot of it. Expensive and time consuming since it needs to be added gradually and best if only one part is added per day. With a tank of that size, if it was mine, I would seriously look into a Kalkwasser reactor and dosing unit. It might aid you greatly in managing pH and calcium.

Your water changes are helping greatly in rebalancing your trace elements. You could probably move it to a 10% weekly at this time, making sure that the pH of the replacement water matches your tank specs as closely as possible.

Where are your mushrooms located in your tank? Too much flow will keep them from expanding fully. And over time that might cause a gradual reduction in size.

The solution might be balancing and moderating alk/calc and proper flow. And, of course, patience as you move forward with this. Hopefully someone else will offer some more advice. Mushrooms can be tricky; and yes, most salt mixes have crummy buffering capacity. You might try a different brand of salt. It's funny, but they seem to work differently in different tanks.

 

[GobyJohnKenobi]

One more thing: I kust noticed that your SG looks a bit low at 1.023. Not all that bad, but you might aim for 1.025. A refractometer is a good investment at $50 considering how easy it is to drop that kind of dough on a nice colony of mushrooms.

I bought one and discovered that my SG was actually 1.031. My hydrometer was that far off, I thought it was 1.0255. Been slowly moving it down.

Good luck.

 

[jskaras]

Thanks! I'll give it a try.
I checked my SG with a refractometer today and it is 1.025. As for location, they are located throughout the tank.... high , low, in shady areas and bright, high and low flow. I have about 100-150 of them and they are all equally retracted which makes me feel it is chemical rather than light.. The Calcium level of 500 is probably artifactual due to the low buffer. It should drop as the buffer increases.

 

[jskaras]

OK. SC=1.025. Ca++ is 450 and Buffer is 3.83 (10.75). Still no change. Any other recommendations?

 

[Tallinu]

What kind of mushrooms do you have? I'm thinking your problem here is light. You have a lot of light. Mushrooms are light sensitive and one of the things they do is slowly shrink over many months under a high light intensity. They don't like high current. They don't like alot of light. They need to feed a bit as well. Your tank sounds a bit sterile and clean. Try something as simple as turning your lights off completely for a day. And then a couple of days later turn them off completely again. See if they show even the slightest signs of improvement. If they show any improvement you may also wish to try feeding them with some sort of phytoplankton. Or stir up a little marine snow. The Favia's problem is most likely related to something else. Since your still having trouble after all the water changes you could try testing your water for copper. Do you even have copper pipes in your home? I let the water run a bit to eliminate any copper sedimentation in my tap water. Trace amounts could be causing some irritation. I picked up a copper test kit since I have 2 feet of copper pipes just before the tap I use. Doesn't sound like critter problem since all 150 plus shrooms are having trouble at the same time. No voltage leakage from any of your appliances in the tank? Do you skim at all? I see you have a wet/dry. Skimmers help remove the toxins that corals use in warfare. Probably a longshot there. I don't know. Other than the light I'm just tossing rare problems I've read about out there for you.

I'm just going to have to suggest making some photoperiod adjustments and see if that gets you any response at all. Your chemistry was a bit off I suppose but not horribly so and if you have changed everything with no response of any kind, then that was not necessarily the problem.

Tallinu

 

[jskaras]

Thanks for the input. I'll try fiddling with the photoperiod but it has been largely unchanged for 7 years and they were doing fine even with the lights. At 7W/gal I'm not sure it is excessive, but I don't want to lose any of my acros either. The water is 5 stage ro/di. I'm not aware if any copper could get through the filters. I may change them out just to be sure but I doubt this is it. I've been thinking about adding a skimmer , but again, after 7 years without one I'm reluctant to think that this is the cause. Let's see what the light change does. I might even put in my old bulbs!

 

[Lymonhead]

did it start right after you changed your bulbs? how long ago did you change them and how does that compare to ... etc. b/c light is an issue. good luck! sorry i couldn't be more help but i think it is "something in the water" - something chemical. have you been using any NEW or really OLD/ different nutrients. just giving it a shot. peace.

 

[jskaras]

No. It started before I changed the lights. I changed them all out in case that was the culprit. No new additives (or old ones for that matter). I changed the photoperiod for a couple of days and didn't see any difference so I went back to the old schedule. I think it is something chemical and perhaps something I can't test for. Maybe more water changes?
Thanks.

 

[jskaras]

No. It started before I changed the lights. I changed them all out in case that was the culprit. No new additives (or old ones for that matter). I changed the photoperiod for a couple of days and didn't see any difference so I went back to the old schedule. I think it is something chemical and perhaps something I can't test for. Maybe more water changes?
Thanks.

 

[Lymonhead]

karas, are you doing all your water changes? maybe give them some reef juice in a turkey baster and keep them somewhat covered. my shrooms that are covered are WAY bigger. just trying here... i'd give the juice, then wait a day and do a big ater change, then a partial water test right after that and then wait at least 4 hours and do a full water test. might also want to move rocks around and see if you can cover them more. just trying peace.

 

[jskaras]

Lymonhead, thanks for the advice. I'll try some localized feedings. I usually just feed through the sump. Since I have about 200 shrooms scattered all over the tank, it probably won't work long term and spot feeding to the extent of my population would probably pollute the water. Thanks. Sorry about the Tigers ( I grew up in Dearborn) Go Wings!

 

[basiab]

I would try cleaning up the water with activated charcoal. It does sound like a chemical warfare problem. You have had the tank working well too long for most of the other issues mentioned.

But in truth I can not believe you do not do water changes and have gotten away with it so long. First of all you replenish minerals on a scheduled basis and you get rid of toxins. Yes you can replenish the minerals on your own but without water changes you have sewer water. The only thing I can think of is that you have a light load for your tank so it worked. In any case, I do not think it is the cause of your problem because mushrooms are about the most forgiving of the corals.

 

[norm_al]

pics

pics

:eek2: WOW your link is very detailed! for mushrooms? which is very good because we love all the cool colors and types the discs come in. that said, i wish you could post a pic because seeing is beliveing, this could be very simple solution to your problem. IMA that shrooms clean you tank of nutrients so lack of water changes can make mushies very large or very small depending on the load on your tank.[ i forgot do you have fish? }and have you added any new rock,corals ect. you may have brought in some kind of protozoa or parasite ... do you use uv sterilizer... my guess is that your not useing iodine iodide:strooper: u must be careful this can cause some alga blooooms,SO THAT SAID WHAT ARE THE KINDS OF SHROOMS THAT UHAVE.goodluck

 

[jskaras]

Quick follow up.....
As time has passed, my large blue shrooms appear to have faded away . My reds and striped are slowly coming back and are looking better than ever. I suspect coral wars (i.e. toxins). No other changes to my routine or supplement schedule. Water parameters remain good.Looks like the worst is over. Perhaps in time a few blues may return.

 

[BigScott]

im glad to hear your shrooms are comming bac.. heres my two cents worth..i dont use iodine..never have..i got rics an yumas hairys, an discomas..but they ALL are on the bottom of the tank, with no skimmer with 6 fish in a 75g..i do a 30 percent water change a month..my cal lvl is abot 500 an my alk is about 7.5
my temp is 76 ish...an my ph runs at about 8.5..an everything is growin like mad..i hoped i helped..

BIG SCOTT