Skimmer vs. Refugium

[j2me5ku]

I'm planning to buy a JBJ Nanocube 12DX and I was wondering is a skimmer necessary for a tank this small. I've read if I do weekly water changes and have chaeto in one of the chambers of the nanocube, that it'll take out just as much gunk as a skimmer. is this true? I want to keep my expenses down because I dont have much money to buy a skimmer.

I plan to stock the tank with mostly LPS, rics and zoos with a true perc pair and maybe a goby/shrimp pair.

 

[RichConley]

Chaeto wont do anything if an animal spawns in your tank. A bristleworm spawn in that tank will kill everything...unless you run a skimmer.

 

[Dave2]

I am a skimmer guy myself, and could never part with it. But on a nanocube 12 gal there are no skimmers that fit without modifying the top part (nano-fissions don't count as skimmers, they are air bubblers)

With a tank that small (from experience, 14 gallon glass cube reef tank), I would just do a 3 gallon water change weekly. Be sure to use RO/DI water only, you wont regret it

 

[alizarin]

I'd ask that question on nano-reef.com - that's a very very common setup there and you'll get people who've tried it both ways. Most people on reefcentral are drawing on larger tank experience which is a different game in some ways (like water change vs protein skimmer - harder to do big water changes on a large tank).

I don't know if it does just as well as a skimmer or not but it is effective if you do the water changes you need to do regardless. I run a 10 gallon with a hob mini-refugium that I change 10% water on weekly and all my corals (LPS and softies) are very happy. (5 gobies, 2 chromis, 10lb live rock) I've never had a problem with a skimmerless nano that I kept up on biweekly water changes with over the last couple years.

 

[j2me5ku]

i'll see what i can do when i get the tank...i'll decide to get the skimmer if i have room after i install an extra pump and if i have money...

thanks for your help...i'll keep up the waterchanges when i get the cube.

 

[Fredfish]

A bristleworm spawn in that tank will kill everything...unless you run a skimmer

Nope. I doubt very much that you could fit anyting into a 12 gallon tank that would produce enough eggs/sperm to foul it.

Such a small tank really dosn't need a skimmer. A 20% weekly water change is a lot percentage wise, but only 2.2 gallons. 10% is prabably fine and is even less water.

alizarin. Thats quite the bioload in your tank. Do you ever test for nitrates or phosphates? I am curious to know what the readings would be.

Fred

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8760547#post8760547 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fredfish
Nope. I doubt very much that you could fit anyting into a 12 gallon tank that would produce enough eggs/sperm to foul it.

Have you ever seen a large bristleworm spawn? Or a BTA? Or even an urchin? Any one of those will kill a tank that small.

 

[alizarin]

alizarin. Thats quite the bioload in your tank. Do you ever test for nitrates or phosphates? I am curious to know what the readings would be.

I just tested :

0.1 ppm PHO4
<0.1 NO2
~0.25 NO3
I think that's mg/L... it's the seaChem test.... near the bottom of the scale. Last time I did a water change was 4 days ago.

Yeah, I know it sounds like a high bioload but the gobies are 1 inch long and the chromis are juveniles that I'm quarantining and just haven't gotten around to moving in the past couple months. I feed frozn squid, shrimp, and cyclopeeze in a blender - enough to have food in suspention for 5 minutes every day (lately went to every other day).

There's some (not allot) soft corals and halemaeda (macro) in the tank as well to take up a bit more nutrients.

 

[alizarin]

Have you ever seen a large bristleworm spawn? Or a BTA? Or even an urchin? Any one of those will kill a tank that small.

I've kept nanos for a couple years and have been reading about other people's nano reefs the whole time on nano-reef.com and that's not at all a regular occurance... in fact I've never heard of it. But, people don't usually keep BTAs or urchin in nanos (or large bristleworms), and if they do they they're small. I'm sure any big creature in a small tank could foul it.

 

[j2me5ku]

I dont plan to keep anything that big in nature in my tank...mostly lps and softies with a pair of true percs.

 

[Henry Bowman]

I have a 12 gl nano that's been up and running for 3 years now. I do weekly 1.5-2 gl water changes. It has a DSB (bout 4") and about 18lbs of live rock in it (yes its full). I have zoos, 2 clams, xenia and a bunch of mushrooms. No skimmer. No fish. I keep plenty snails and blue leg hermits.

I have upgraded the lighting (it's PC based) and added a ICA chilling unit. Have put a Maxi 1200 in the pump position to increase flow.

All my inhabitants are healthy have grown and multiplied. I keep up Ca through slurry addition of 1/8tsp of calk every other day and occasionally Kents turbo Ca.

The parameters have always been in line as long as I keep the H20 changes up....

Nothing has ever spawned in my tank.

 

[nick18tjetta]

I plan on running my new setup without a skimmer. It will be on a much larger scale (either a 120, 140 or 156, LFS is calling around trying to get me a deal in that size range).

I plan on having a large Fuge, and and a few mangroves for filtration. The skimmer on my last tank (was wiped out in may due to a power outage and 90+ tempatures) ran for a couple of years with producing very little to no skimmate when my fuge got well established. I know the skimmer works well, because it recently sucked tons of junk when curing some LR, and worked well before my fuge go established. I really see it as removing one more heat producing, noise producing element from my tank, and if my parameters get out of wack I could always throw it in the sump if necessary.

 

[Fredfish]

I really see it as removing one more heat producing, noise producing element from my tank

Yup. Eric Borneman has been looking at his skimate to see exactly what it is that skimmers remove. It looks like it is mostly small particulate matter that would be a food source for corals and small crawly critters in a fuge.

Fred

 

[j2me5ku]

thanks everyone for your input...but i must agree that there has been success stories from those with and without skimmer, those with and without fuges, and a combination of both. i guess it comes down to preference and if you can afford a skimmer and if you can integrate it into your system.

it all comes down to how you run your system. your experiences and the way you run your tanks (ie you dose heavily or you do frequent water changes and so on) will make you come to the conclusion whether your system requires a skimmer or not.

 

[Khaley]

j2me5ku

I run a Sapphire skimmer in my nano with the stock lid closed no mods. Cost about $89. I have a heavily stocked tank and tend to feed heavy. I could not stock or feed the way I do without the skimmer. I do weekly water changes and keep some macro in the tank. I will be transferring my friends to a new 120g from the 24g. (One of the reasons I am so heavily stocked right now.) I have to say I love that skimmer! Water is clear and everything is happy and growing. Almost hate to change tanks... Almost ;-) Sapphire does have a skimmer that fits the JBJ 12 without mods. (Goes in the rear sump and fits with the lid closed.)

I will have a fuge in the new sump and run a skimmer part time depending on the color and density of the skimmate.

have in JBJ 24
2 BTA's (thriving)
2 clowns
1 long nose hawkfish
1 neon goby
1 rainfordi (old glory)goby
1 cleaner shrimp
1 pepermint shrimp
2 pom pom crabs
LPS and SPS

 

[j2me5ku]

thanks khaley.

but the nanocube is on hold because my job wont allow it. but with the funds i saved, i am upgrading my 20h gal tank...i'll post pics later

-james

 

[wds21921]

I disagree with many of the responses on here. Regardless of whether your running a large tank or a small tank the end result is the same, waste.
Water changes alone will not remove all of the waste which is cumulative regardless of the amount of water changed, period.
I ran a 30 gallon tank lightly stocked for many years doing 50% water changes and still it would have bouts of rises in cumulative waste. After adding a skimmer to the mix and RO/DI water the results were impressive to say the least.
Not only was the water clearer but it tested consistently better EVERY time. My fish loss was cut down from 3-4 fish per year to 0. The maintenance was also cut down to 1-20% change per month.

It used to be that with smaller tanks came more maintenance because you had slower or less turnover and less percentage of dissolved O2 along with other things but nowdays that isn't true. What has remained true is that waste by percentage is still likely to be higher in a nano than in a larger tank. Many people still overstock these tanks, not all.

Weekly water changes with some cheato are not going to replace a skimmer, that's an apples and oranges comparison and IMO ridiculous.
If your going to spend that much money on a system with that type of livestock do yourself a favor and also invest in a skimmer, even if it's only a small one like a Prizm. While not the best skimmer by far, it will still do better than water changes and some cheato which will actually do nothing to eleviate the protien build up (the target elimination by a skimmer).

 

[dragonforce]

Get what you can afford. The only thing you REALLY need is 1.5-2 lbs of live rock per gallon of water and weekly W/C of 10% or once every 2 weeks of 20-25% along with proper feeding and bioload this hobby is VERY easy.

I do like skimmers though and I also like fuges. I currently run a remora with MJ1200 and I also have some cheato and carbon running in a hagen hob filter 24/7. No probs here.

 

[Fredfish]

wds21921. I'm glad they skimmer works well for you. A large refugium and no water changes works equally well for me.

dragonforce. You can acomplish the same thing with live sand as live rock. I have maybe 1/4 lb. of live rock per gallon in my tank, but I also have a sandbed and lots of algae for nutrient processing and export.

It is all about ballancing nutient imputs and nutrient exports. There are a lot of different ways to do this

Fred

 

[wds21921]

I'm glad that works for you Fred but again the export of proteins will most likely not happen in a fuge. You can export some other excess nutrients and waste but proteins, I seriously doubt.

Hopefully I'm wrong but I think over a long period of time (years perhaps) that build up could present a problem if it's not monitored properly.

Also, what you said is true about balancing imports and exports, a dedicated/experienced aquarist would have little problem with this but someone with a minimal set-up and a lack of testing/information could have an enviromental (mini) time bomb on there hands.


The pro-side of the fuge is it's a more natural process.

DSB is a hydrogen sulfide accident waiting to happen in the event of a power outage. IMO