Skimming or no skimming?
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graveyardworm
Premium Member
If I was going to set up a macro or seagrass dominated tank with no sensative coral and a small fish load I would not skim. Regular water changes and dosing should be sufficient to keep things stable.
Samala
New member
I dont skim. Well, put it this way, there's a skimmer on the tank but it doesnt do anything really. It only produces skimmate if the tank goes much longer than 7-10 days without a water change. It might be marginally helping to level the pH at night and during the day, but thats arguable. If anything its there for backup in case my Caulerpa stand decides to sporulate.
Honestly I've taken the skimmer offline several times without any negative response in the tank (no microalgae, no sporulating etc). If you setup the tank as Graveyard mentioned - lotsa plants, frequent water changes (20-30% or more) and low bioload you might not need it.
>Sarah
Honestly I've taken the skimmer offline several times without any negative response in the tank (no microalgae, no sporulating etc). If you setup the tank as Graveyard mentioned - lotsa plants, frequent water changes (20-30% or more) and low bioload you might not need it.
>Sarah
Thanks for your answers!
I havent decided entirely on what to keep yet. The tank is 100cmx40cmx40cm (40"x16"x16) so I was planning on a pile of LS with inhabitants in the center back. Something low in front of the pile and grass on the sides to make a green(er) frame. Say 1/4 to the left grass, 1/2 in the middle "reef" and the last 1/4 grass again.
I was hoping to have some corals in the middle. Aesthetic vise I think reefs in general are very "alien" to us landliving humans. But I was hoping to fuse the alien-ness into a well known environment, i.e. grass. Give an artist new tools and you wont see him for a year, or more to the point his wife wont see him for a year. Anyways, I was hoping to keep some corals in the planted.
After reading up abit on corals I get the impression that they can tolerate higher amounts of nitrates but are very sensitive to phosphate. I was thinking a NO3 in the range 5-10ppm and PO4 in the range 0.05-0.1ppm. Do you think I can do this without a skimmer? If I go with this idea, it can be considered a pure experiment so even if none of you would recommend such a setup would you consider it plausible? Or even better do you know of any corals thet would like such a setup? If it works we might seeing marine low-techs in a few years!!
Sorry if I wandered abit from the thread.. started thinking while I typed here
All the best..
//Mattias
I havent decided entirely on what to keep yet. The tank is 100cmx40cmx40cm (40"x16"x16) so I was planning on a pile of LS with inhabitants in the center back. Something low in front of the pile and grass on the sides to make a green(er) frame. Say 1/4 to the left grass, 1/2 in the middle "reef" and the last 1/4 grass again.
I was hoping to have some corals in the middle. Aesthetic vise I think reefs in general are very "alien" to us landliving humans. But I was hoping to fuse the alien-ness into a well known environment, i.e. grass. Give an artist new tools and you wont see him for a year, or more to the point his wife wont see him for a year. Anyways, I was hoping to keep some corals in the planted.
After reading up abit on corals I get the impression that they can tolerate higher amounts of nitrates but are very sensitive to phosphate. I was thinking a NO3 in the range 5-10ppm and PO4 in the range 0.05-0.1ppm. Do you think I can do this without a skimmer? If I go with this idea, it can be considered a pure experiment so even if none of you would recommend such a setup would you consider it plausible? Or even better do you know of any corals thet would like such a setup? If it works we might seeing marine low-techs in a few years!!
Sorry if I wandered abit from the thread.. started thinking while I typed here
All the best..
//Mattias
graveyardworm
Premium Member
I'm working on basically the same thing you're planning, a seagrass lagoon type biotope with some LR bommies and a few soft corals. The main difference is that I'm also planning an SPS dominated tank connected with a common sump so I am using a skimmer. I was maintaining 5 ppm NO3 with dosing, and always had undetectable PO4. It would be cool for someone with your planned setup to use an ecosystem rather than a skimmer. I think the softies and plants would love it.
I just read Chris Jury's article "Reniming our Corals" in the march edition of RK. He made some references to SPSes(Dont know if I dare to use the term after reading the article though ) that like to live in murky lagoonal waters. I've been doing some thinking and wonder if such corals might suit a skimmer free setup very well.
Theorywise I think that all the nutrient exports in a high-tech classical NO3~=0 and PO4~=0 need to be replaced. So in a seagrass/macro/coral tank the seagrass and the macro export NO3 and P04. I'd like to have enough of them to need to supplement NO3 in effect making PO4 the limiting nutrient. Some CO2 might also be necessary but hopefully aeration or aerobic stock will be enough. DOCs are of course hard to export without a skimmer, bacteria will have to do the work. As long as NO3 and PO4 are consumed by grass and macro it's not a real problem in itself. Small to meduim sized organic particles will fall into the realm of filter-feeders. "Murky water" corals being such a filterfeeder. I feel my knowledge in the realm of the particle preferences of filtering lagoonal fauna is lackling though.
All input is appreciated!
//Mattias
) that like to live in murky lagoonal waters. I've been doing some thinking and wonder if such corals might suit a skimmer free setup very well. Theorywise I think that all the nutrient exports in a high-tech classical NO3~=0 and PO4~=0 need to be replaced. So in a seagrass/macro/coral tank the seagrass and the macro export NO3 and P04. I'd like to have enough of them to need to supplement NO3 in effect making PO4 the limiting nutrient. Some CO2 might also be necessary but hopefully aeration or aerobic stock will be enough. DOCs are of course hard to export without a skimmer, bacteria will have to do the work. As long as NO3 and PO4 are consumed by grass and macro it's not a real problem in itself. Small to meduim sized organic particles will fall into the realm of filter-feeders. "Murky water" corals being such a filterfeeder. I feel my knowledge in the realm of the particle preferences of filtering lagoonal fauna is lackling though.
All input is appreciated!
//Mattias
wong BANTEN
New member
SKIMMING,...... wil DISTURD the ANAEROBE bakteri in ur DSB!
graveyardworm
Premium Member
I'm curious where you got this information, this is first time I've ever heard it, and can you describe how skimming disturbs anaerobic bacteria deep within a sand bed or live rock?
wong BANTEN
New member
David,
Anaerobe bakteri need less even ZERO oxigen to perform their JOB. Aerobe bakteri ......opposite.
see the etimology of those words.
Anaerobe bakteri need less even ZERO oxigen to perform their JOB. Aerobe bakteri ......opposite.
see the etimology of those words.
graveyardworm
Premium Member
Correct, and anaerobic bacteria live deep within a DSB, and deep enough into LR where any oxygen has essentially been used up by the aerobic bacteria closer to the surface. I'm interested in knowing how a skimmer might have any effect on these deep anaerobic areas in question.
I am very familiar with anaerobic bacteria as every tank I own has a deep sand bed because I love the denitrifying ability of anaerbic bacteria.
Please explain to me why I should turn off my skimmer so that my DSB will work correctly.
wong BANTEN
New member
You can chance the Position of your skimmer, maybe after water pass the DSB.
SKIMMER not only SKIMMING,......is DISOLVE O2,CO2,or more by increasing the surface (bubble skimmer).
Try test skimmer efect on diffrent temp with CO2 conten and O2 Content.......very interesting result
SKIMMER not only SKIMMING,......is DISOLVE O2,CO2,or more by increasing the surface (bubble skimmer).
Try test skimmer efect on diffrent temp with CO2 conten and O2 Content.......very interesting result
Samala
New member
I still dont quite follow Wong. Most of us on this particular forum have our DSBs in our tanks, over the full bottom area, and not as remote DSBs (the DSB in a five gallon bucket route) where we could change the lineup of the water as it passes from main tank to say sump/skimmer and then the DSB area. So.. I'm not sure how we could do what is being proposed.
Granted, skimmers might be adding/dissolving gases into the mix.. but how does that affect anaerobic bacteria that are deep in our DSBs, sometimes two or three inches down into the sand/mud? Porewater doesnt move around a whole lot at these depths, so far as I know (barring appreciable disturbances by animals).
>Sarah
Granted, skimmers might be adding/dissolving gases into the mix.. but how does that affect anaerobic bacteria that are deep in our DSBs, sometimes two or three inches down into the sand/mud? Porewater doesnt move around a whole lot at these depths, so far as I know (barring appreciable disturbances by animals).
>Sarah
There might be something to this
In one of my FW sand bottom tanks small bubbles form in the sand by the glass when the water is O2 saturated. I would think that O2 is consumed right away but then again my sand tank is mature and the "sand" is as much detrius and "goo" as it is real sand. The bubbles only form well after my plants have been bubbling for awhile.
If skimmers, or skimmers and plants, O2 saturate the water it might be an issue for the DSB. I have no idea how it would affect bigger organisms in the DSB but it might be poisonous to them.
The bacteria i question, denitrifiers doing NO3-> NO or NO3->N2 are probably not really anaerobic but microaerophile(translation warning) meaning they not only tolerate but thrive in environments with very little O2. And I dont think that even saturated water could push sufficient O2 to the bottom of the DSB to make the environment there unsuitable for denitrifiers. I think they would do fine even when the water is O2 saturated. Skimming will remove their "food" though. After all they breathe NO3 and eat simple hydrocarbons.
Cheers,
Mattias
In one of my FW sand bottom tanks small bubbles form in the sand by the glass when the water is O2 saturated. I would think that O2 is consumed right away but then again my sand tank is mature and the "sand" is as much detrius and "goo" as it is real sand. The bubbles only form well after my plants have been bubbling for awhile.
If skimmers, or skimmers and plants, O2 saturate the water it might be an issue for the DSB. I have no idea how it would affect bigger organisms in the DSB but it might be poisonous to them.
The bacteria i question, denitrifiers doing NO3-> NO or NO3->N2 are probably not really anaerobic but microaerophile(translation warning) meaning they not only tolerate but thrive in environments with very little O2. And I dont think that even saturated water could push sufficient O2 to the bottom of the DSB to make the environment there unsuitable for denitrifiers. I think they would do fine even when the water is O2 saturated. Skimming will remove their "food" though. After all they breathe NO3 and eat simple hydrocarbons.
Cheers,
Mattias
wong BANTEN
New member
It is move!!, but very SLOW. if you think ......why we KEEP the baketeria in this phase (DSB), and what is fuction of DSB? this water movement coused by
1. grafity or flow
2. the movement of that bakteri them self.
3. the light
If water saturated with O2, then the DEPTH of colony ANAEROBE is very thin........
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