So which LFS is for sale on craigslist?

[KRASHPD]

@Krashpd - the point is that wait a little more and the assets will be available for this price or perhaps a little less without the assumption of any debt. Even in terms of a renegotiated lease. And then you get to pick your location.

True, but it is a gamble. I have no desire to own a LFS store but if I did, I would have to start by quitting my regular job. I would then have to get the licenses and permits to have a fish store which is time and money. Then order all the equipment, set it all up, get live stock and then try to get customers. The initial investment in time and money is huge before you get one customer in the door. Someone buying this store gets to skip all those steps and already has customers in the door. The new owner will get to concentrate on increasing profits and reducing costs and saves thousands in start up fees. The new owner has customers from day one so his montly losses will not be anywhere near a brand new store.

I've watched several new stores open the last couple years and I would bet if they were asked if they could have skipped all the initial setup fees, I'm sure they would have loved that.

For someone that just saw this store for sale and think they could make a quick buck, this would be a terrible investment. For someone that already had a dream and a plan to own a LFS, this would be like a huge headstart if they can renegotiate a fair lease. The lease would have to be renegeotiated at the same time as the sell to make sure it would work. Even if the new owner is only losing $1-2K a month, a store can go a long time trying to bring in business with that small of a loss.

 

[Ahwagirl]

So Louie is also trying to sell his toy store, Brilliant Sky? Jeez, what the heck is going on?

From a purely selfish standpoint, I will be very bummed if AZSB closes. We live about 5 minutes from this store and have pretty much purchased everything from there.

Some of the guys who have managed it have been friendlier than others, but all have been/are quite knowledgeable and it will suck having to drive further for my supplies (yes, I buy my saltwater- with my schedule it's just plum easier).

The current manager is very sweet and knows his stuff (Kyle). For his sake (not a big fan of Louie- strange and arrogant dude), I hope the store remains open. Evidently there was a deal in the works several months ago but it fell through. Rumor has it that the rent is several months in arrears. I agree with others here that being close to the road isn't really a huge factor. When I decide to venture out to another LFS I use the Dex website and see what's in my part of town, etc.

I think this is a sign of our awful economic times and retail is tough, in general.

Fingers are crossed that someone is able to buy AZSB and make it successful. :beer:

 

[aquainas]

True, but it is a gamble. I have no desire to own a LFS store but if I did, I would have to start by quitting my regular job. I would then have to get the licenses and permits to have a fish store which is time and money. Then order all the equipment, set it all up, get live stock and then try to get customers. The initial investment in time and money is huge before you get one customer in the door. Someone buying this store gets to skip all those steps and already has customers in the door. The new owner will get to concentrate on increasing profits and reducing costs and saves thousands in start up fees. The new owner has customers from day one so his montly losses will not be anywhere near a brand new store.

I've watched several new stores open the last couple years and I would bet if they were asked if they could have skipped all the initial setup fees, I'm sure they would have loved that.

For someone that just saw this store for sale and think they could make a quick buck, this would be a terrible investment. For someone that already had a dream and a plan to own a LFS, this would be like a huge headstart if they can renegotiate a fair lease. The lease would have to be renegeotiated at the same time as the sell to make sure it would work. Even if the new owner is only losing $1-2K a month, a store can go a long time trying to bring in business with that small of a loss.

Some of the most logical comments I've heard so far!
All the rant about being "too far off the road" is nonsense. If you're a customer looking to buy merchandise you're not gonna input a Google search looking for "Fish store near the road".
In addition, as a consumer if you find what you're looking for and the price is decent and customer service is great and the merchant is somewhat close by you'll keep going back.
The location is very good being in close proximity to major Highways, it's the lack of investment in advertising and promotion that led to the store's demise. Let's be real here, the store does not have a bad rep, everyone that has managed the establishment accomplished it professionally and knowledgeably in my opinion, come to think of it I bought my first saltwater tank ever there, and got tons of help from Skip, Brian, and Carlos along the way. These guys all know this hobby very well and knew how to treat people. However there is one major and final missing link to this equation and that's investment. Consumers love sales, and discounts and wide variety to choose from, but when a manager has no ability to set forth any such "treats" due to negative cash flow their hands are tied! Why do you think none of them have responded on this thread?
Like I said before regardless of the debt involved, if someone has the cash ($100k) at least then this is a steal, as Krashpd noted, the initial build out far surpasses any debt that may carry over to the new owner, though they should be aware of the liabilities involved and be prepared to go the extra mile in getting new and repeat customers in the door.
This is beginning to become the story of a dead animal being beaten with a 2x4...Anyone contemplating entrepreneurship in any business should already know what's being said here, what would be awesome is if folks could post specific things that they would have liked to see or experience as a consumer. This would be valuable information to a lurking prospect that we might all benefit from if it were implemented anywhere not just AZSB.

I'm done with my rant.

 

[microwave]

I think one thing that wasn't touched on was lack of a informative websites for any of these LFS. Most are just landing pages with phone numbers and hours of operations. What year is this? IMO, in this day and age, running a successful business goes hand in hand with a good online presence.

Whomever buys AZSB needs to invest in a proper website and online marketing. I would love to be able to go to their website and see specials, whats in new this week etc. Setting up a twitter feed would be a great idea as you could keep people in the loop as new stock comes in.

Aquatouch does have a complete website, although it would be nice to have it updated more frequently, but it shows that they at least understand people use the internet to check out what a business has to offer. I'd be interested to know how much business is driven to their location simply because they have a complete website that explains who they are, what they do, and what you can expect to find.

 

[azsaltman]

AZSB used to have a complete website, offerring a ton of products via their online web store. But then they moved into their new location and shut that down.

Mostly I understand due to the confusion of having online "Web" prices and different in-store pricing.

You can't sell stuff on the web @ one price and in-store at another it tends to upset people

On the other end of that spectrum.. Why bother running an online store @ all if you have to list your items @ 5% over cost just to compete with the likes of customaquatic, or marinedepot..

If you take 2 seconds to think about it it, it really makes sense.

It's for that reason alone I beleive 90% o the area stores don't invest in a full functional website..

 

[microwave]

AZSB used to have a complete website, offerring a ton of products via their online web store. But then they moved into their new location and shut that down.

Mostly I understand due to the confusion of having online "Web" prices and different in-store pricing.

You can't sell stuff on the web @ one price and in-store at another it tends to upset people

On the other end of that spectrum.. Why bother running an online store @ all if you have to list your items @ 5% over cost just to compete with the likes of customaquatic, or marinedepot..

If you take 2 seconds to think about it it, it really makes sense.

It's for that reason alone I beleive 90% o the area stores don't invest in a full functional website..

I wasnt suggesting that they create an online store, or even list their prices for that matter. I can tell you that of March 31 aquatouch just got in several new fish. I cant tell you whats new at any of the other stores without calling or driving there. In fact I didnt have to even go to their website to find that out, they told me via twitter.

Buying online isnt always the best solution. I would rather buy a 100 dollar coral frag from a LFS, as opposed to an 80 dollar frag online that is going to charge 40 dollars for overnight delivery.

Not investing in a website is as foolish as not investing in a sign. There is simply no reason not to do it.

 

[jomskie_ad]

I keep trying to tell my wife that...

ugh wrong game to play with wifey's lol

 

[jomskie_ad]

You're not allowed to play any More Dmorel you're always right!

this should have been part of my other post, lol sorry dont know how to post double qoute

 

[KarlBob]

What would be awesome is if folks could post specific things that they would have liked to see or experience as a consumer. This would be valuable information to a lurking prospect that we might all benefit from if it were implemented anywhere not just AZSB.

The biggest thing I can think of is very specific to AZSB - the wasted space at the front of the store. The lounge/playroom area was very visible to entering customers, and most of the time (at least in my opinion) it was an eyesore. That space could have been used to display product, but wasn't.

Edit: All of this is in the past tense because that's how things were as of the last time I visited (it's been a while).

 

[Reeefer]

How about a weekly workshop where the public is invited to come and learn various "how tos" for saltwater reefkeeping? Or how about a weekly workshop where new products are featured. Anyone that attends qualifies for a 10% discount on that product. Something to that effect....

How about a refer a friend promotion? It would be very easy to setup if you had all customers in a database. Offer them 20% off a purchase or $5 or $10 off a purchase. Put an expiration on it monthly to ensure customers keep coming in the door.

 

[KarlBob]

How about a weekly workshop where the public is invited to come and learn various "how tos" for saltwater reefkeeping? Or how about a weekly workshop where new products are featured. Anyone that attends qualifies for a 10% discount on that product. Something to that effect....

Even monthly instead of weekly, I think this would be a great idea. Lots of people would like to move up from freshwater community tanks, cichlids, etc. to saltwater, but the hobby still has a reputation as an expensive, expert-level undertaking. A few demos to de-mystify the basics of saltwater tank maintenance could entice more people to the salty side of fishkeeping.

 

[Reeefer]

You're right, monthly would be more realistic. I was simply thinking on the same lines as Home Depot and Lowes and how they do their workshops. In the end, I think it would generate more business. Besides, who doesn't want to learn more?

 

[dmorel]

Lots of people would like to move up from freshwater community tanks, cichlids, etc. to saltwater, but the hobby still has a reputation as an expensive, expert-level undertaking.

Are you trying to imply that this is not true? Relatively speaking, that's very much the case. Certainly saltwater keepers are not required to go to the lengths that some of us do, but from a freshwater community tank to even the most simplistic fish only it's orders of magnitude both more expensive and "expert-level" of an undertaking.

In fact, I would even suggest that to some extent there is a direct correlation between the spend and the expert-level knowledge one needs. Which is to say that were one to try to do a saltwater tank inexpensively one would need to both know a lot more about what you are doing and spend a lot more time making sure things are right. While there is certainly a law of diminishing returns [think 500 dollar skimmer vs. 2000 dollar skimmer] the fact of the matter is the basics required to do a SW tank are much more expensive than doing fresh water. The body of knowledge to successfully keep the animals alive (let alone happy and thriving) is equally larger. Doubly so when you have inferior or less supporting equipment.
(I'm certain there are exceptions to some degree, as some FW and planted tanks are equally as challenging and/or sophisticated and expensive as many of our reefs.)

Now, I'm not suggesting one can't be in the saltwater hobby without a large budget, but to do so typically requires hunting down used equipment, modding and DIY work, trading for corals or getting them cheap from other hobbyists, etc. Since the context of this post is around what a LFS needs to do in order to get a quality customer base, that would be EXACTLY the person you don't want as a customer because they aren't going to hit your bottom line effectively.

It's fair to say that the majority of folks on this forum will say that AT is the best LFS in the PHX metro right? They are also the most expensive and the ones with the most experienced and knowledgeable staff...

Now, all of that aside I like the idea of monthly workshops, something FRAG offers from time to time I might add...

I still believe that the economics are the single most important factor here, there needs to be a massive reduction in rent for this place to be viable.
There's been some discussion about buying the business but not assuming the lease, I don't believe that's currently an option on the table. IF AZSB goes to bankruptcy it might be, but I would be willing to bet (though admittedly I'm just speculating) there is not an option to buy the business for 5K and NOT assume the lease, if that was the case, I'll pay cash tomorrow just for the equipment. If it goes to bankruptcy, no way do the assets go for as little as 5K. I've heard a bajillion different explanations as to why this business is for sale so inexpensively, and not one of them has convinced me that it's not the lease. (My fear of lawyers requires me to point out that I have no knowledge of that as fact, I'm merely speculating and offering an opinion based on the discussions here).

 

[DaAdams]

I have not been out to AZSB in a LONG time.

How is the rest of the complex set up? Is the whole place leased out? is there alot of open space? I know in Glendale they are giving away lease space right now just to get someone to pay some sort of rent.

The lease can be re negotiated. So 5500 could be drastically cut in half but it all comes down to the landlord.

 

[Elliott]

I know in Glendale they are giving away lease space right now just to get someone to pay some sort of rent.

Half of all commercial space loans nationwide will be underwater by the end of 2010, our next big economic hurdle

 

[bluelair]

I just have to comment on location. I absolutely don't think for a hobbyist, specialty store that location matters that much. I'd like to cite 2 very visible retail examples: Starbucks and Ikea. For Starbucks, they're like gas stations, convenience of locations does matter, a lot, that's why they put them across the street from one another, you're not going to drive 20 minutes for coffee.

Then there is "destination shopping", like Ikea. Believe it, when Ikea scouts a city, they are not looking for the most convenient, most foot traffic, they are going to come in, locate in a more remote place, then drive, drive, drive, traffic to the store. Once it's established, people know where it is, they have no trouble loading up the car because they know the trip will be rewarded with $$$ savings on their purchases. (Walmart used exactly this strategy when they were small, Sam Walton used to scout cities by airplane, so we know it works. Southwest does the same for airlines and airports, not in Phoenix, but elsewhere.) Now, the other corollary to this is that the remote site needs to be dramatically cheaper than the in-city location, to help pay for the promo and advertising. Ikea does this through its construction and they have the capital to wait out the return period for the high up-front.

LFS, especially reef stores are a lot closer to this second category. Not saying they don't benefit from foot traffic, but if AZSB's draw had always been the shopping experience, the exotic livestock, the knowledgeable staff. Lets face it, Pet stores are like miniature zoos, for kids and adults. That justifies the trip. How many of you have taken your kids through the puppy store at one of the local malls? You ever buy anything?

One reservation I would have on AZSB is about the rent and OpEx. Is it actually cheaper than a more central location? I don't know. If there's not a cost advantage to the location, then that is a waste of money going out the door every month.

So I think the location is just fine. Not that it couldn't be successful at any of the other spots mentioned, but I think that's just personal preference and I can't find anything wrong.

The real opportunity here is to build the local reputation and begin driving traffic. Internet helps, strong local promotion within the community does also. Get people out of the Petcos and Petsmarts. You need to create that feeling of positive anticipation each time someone considers whether they're going to go. You have to SELL them on coming to the store first before you can sell them anything IN the store. That starts with having some unadvertised in-store specials or good loss-leaders and reinforcing that for your customers so they keep coming back. Say what you want about Pet Safari and Pets Inc., but if you don't have a lot of money, these two stores are the bargain hunters paradise.

Start using social networking. I'm not aware of one LFS that does this. Honestly, out of all of the store internet-email lists I'm on, Roxana is the only one I would actually read when she had AZ Ocean. Why? 1) it was relevant to me, she featured products that I needed, not the products she wanted to sell, like a 600 gallon tank or specials on Tetra Goldfish food. And 2) It was sincere, you could tell she was writing each message herself. That's why I will go to her first for ANYTHING I need, I actually believe she cares about my livestock. I feel the same about KK.

I'm also glossing over the basics here, but you have to keep the store clean, smelling good (SOOOO important), properly lit. NOtice I didn't say "Well Let". That's not the point. One thing I don't see any LFS doing well is the variety of lighting. You have Aquatouch which is going for the "White Castle" well-lit laboratory vibe, then stores like Tropical Treasures that are lit like opium dens. How about both? AZSB is perfect for this. Light the dry goods brightly, but keep the "cave" where the fish and corals are and let the 20000Ks do the work for you. Ocean Floor approaches this with their fish rooms in the back. You're entering a different world, you're going underwater. Shouldn't it feel like that?

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Orangetruck94]

Half of all commercial space loans nationwide will be underwater by the end of 2010, our next big economic hurdle

++++++1
My father owns a property preservation company. He works for a couple of big banks in just residential properties. They are telling him to get ready for commercial properties within the next 6 months!
And here we thought residential properties were BAD!!!!:sad2:

 

[tcamos]

Are you trying to imply that this is not true? Relatively speaking, that's very much the case.

I have to agree with that. I kept fresh for several years before I felt confident enough to move up to salt. Once I did, it seemed really easy to keep salt, but I had to realize that it was just because of what I had learned keeping fresh tanks, especially planted. I think keeping a planted tank is the best preparation for a reef because you have to worry about things other than fish, lighting, nutrient levels, substrate etc. make the aquarist start thinking in a broader scope wich is certainly needed for a reef.

I think this is why Aquarium Arts keep fresh now. I remember when I first found them, I was only keeping fresh and was not close to being ready for a reef tank. I was disappointed to find there were no fresh water fish, so they lost a customer.

If more people keep fresh than marine...then it just seems like smart business to include them.

 

[DaAdams]

++++++1
My father owns a property preservation company. He works for a couple of big banks in just residential properties. They are telling him to get ready for commercial properties within the next 6 months!
And here we thought residential properties were BAD!!!!:sad2:

No doubt, I was working in commercial financing/banking for the last 3 years before switching jobs within the industry. It will happen this year really badly. Especially here in AZ. We had all the crazy growth in 05. Now everyone's ARM is coming up and no one will be able to refinance. The business they barely kept afloat will no longer qualify for a new loan to refinance the ARM.

**** hasn't even hit the fan yet!

 

[tcamos]

No doubt, I was working in commercial financing/banking for the last 3 years before switching jobs within the industry. It will happen this year really badly. Especially here in AZ. We had all the crazy growth in 05. Now everyone's ARM is coming up and no one will be able to refinance. The business they barely kept afloat will no longer qualify for a new loan to refinance the ARM.

**** hasn't even hit the fan yet!

But isn't it true that those looking to buy have the advantage in such a market? While getting AZSeabottom may not be the right thing opening a new shop seems like the right time...