Solaris Led lighting systems

[spleen93]

I agree with Bean ... this is getting old. And I'm speaking as an owner of a H4. Can we all stop rehashing the same arguments? Yes, the laws of thermodynamics means a watt is a watt. Yes, MH reflector technology and bulb choice plays a huge role in the available PAR and I agree it would have been interesting to see how the Solaris stacked up against a Lumenarc and a better bulb (though I agree with the MH proponents that PAR numbers are likely to favor the MH).

But I think there's something undeniably cool about the Solaris. The amount of heat radiated from the bulbs is much less than any MH I've dealt with including 150s, 175s, and 250s. My chiller is coming on much less than it was previously with 2 x 250s. The change that happens in Solar mode from sunrise, daylight, cloud cover, sunset, and night mode is really cool to watch and the organisms in my tank seem to respond favorably to the changes.

I'm an early adopter and often end up on the bleeding edge of tech. As such, I've been burned before. But I would say that I'm happy overall with the change I've made from 2x250 MHs. Could I have accomplished similar goals with going with lower wattage MHs? Possible ... but the decrease in heat radiation into the tank and the intensity changes of the light would have been difficult to replicate with MH (maybe with an Elos Suncolor ... ) Do I think that the technology is ready for mainstream adoption? Probably not - there are certainly some very promising new technologies on the horizon that will drastically change the cost-effectiveness of the LED lights and therefore, most people may elect to wait until things settle out. Ultimately, the thing that will determine how good this light is how well the organisms in the tank do and obviously, it'll take a while for us to really document that.

Can we all agree that the points have been made and we all should move along? I look forward to seeing more posts from owners sharing tips and how things are doing.

As a tip from me, I've determined that despite the documentation and what Pat told me, the time offset control on Solar mode works backwards. I.e. - if the lights are coming on at 6 AM and you want them to offset by 2 hours (so they come on at 8 AM instead), you put in -120 into the time offset, not +120.

Spleen

PS: stimpy - I've got 80-90 times flow turnover in my tank as well.

 

[stimpy4242]

will you agree that very few reef keepers have that turnover? I think for people doing sps they are looking at 40-50x maybe a little more...mainstream is between 20-30x though....

My original argument was it works...the only proof i need is that my photosensitive things are doing just fine, which means they must be getting what the need...

Also, when it comes to light penetration, the wider the angle at which light hits the surface of water the less amount of light that penetrates and the more that reflects, this would argue that an LED penetrating straight down will get the most light through...with that being said, I think you will notice an additional advantage of the solaris in that the depth of a tank and what you can keep down there is deeper...for the same amount of lighting equivalent...

Also, I am tired of arguing the cost efficiency...my corals are doing awesome and I am saving 40% in elec costs...i don't run a chiller...OR Additional fans, my tank is completely housed, not open to the air...which means something more that less heat is in there...also i am not running my room air conditioner as much either...also I don't have to buy bulbs, or worry that light quality is decreasing toward the end of its life span....which is multiple times over the course of five years with mh bulbs and more for the actinics...where mine occurs once...

And as mentioned above, the NATURALLY created environment from the cycles is a huge advantage as we attempt to create a natural environment...if you want to argue this, then ask why you have timers on your mh and actinics and moonlights all set at different times..you are trying to create it as well...but solaris and some others like elos and the new led thing...are doing this with a rise and fall of light, like in the natural environment which means i can watch my blooms slowly close as the light dims as oppose to close slowly once the lights are OFF...which I don't think is as good..obviously, its not what happens in the real world...

My BGE bills tells me I am saving money...I also know that I won't have to buy bulbs, or spend time getting them in six months and a year...there are advantages and I think you are afraid to admit them.

 

[stimpy4242]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10114523#post10114523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Musho3210
Why do people say when you have an MH light you spend more to get a chiller? Who said MH lights NEEDED a chiller?

Yeah those people must be crazy...why would they even invent something like that...just crazy...oh wait thats because unless you want a 20" industrial fan blowing over your water you need one...thats why...and if you are telling me you are using 250w MH lights over your setup and running a few pumps and such that you are just using a dinky computer fan, please show me pictures and include the temperature read out in them...because it just physically can not be...unless your house is 40 degrees...and I am exagerating so don't go crazy.

 

[prugs]

(3) 250watt HQI pendants w/ 160watts of T5.
Doors removed for clarity.
(3) 4" computer fans in the canopy
I also have (3) 3"fans computer fans blowing on the sump. My water temp stays less than 80f.

 

[Gobie74]

Well said spleen93

 

[Philwd]

3 250W DE 14K. I use ONE 8" clip on fan blowing over the top of the tank. Tank stays at 80.5 max. I use external return pump, dual Vortechs with motor outside the tank, gravity fed skimmer, open canopy top and back. Even when I used Tunzes temp did not go over 81.

Please don't make such outrageous claims. If you don't use mega amounts of 400W halides going without a chiller is quite possible and done by many. And as you can see it can be accomplished many different ways.

Having said this good luck with your fixture Stimpy.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10113622#post10113622 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stimpy4242
Well see again you go and mention nearly never situation, who has 8-90x turnover...i have 40x in my tank and people think that is crazy....no one does what you said for turnover...i mean MY GOD your poor fishies....anyhow...with that being said...its not my image as I said earlier...ask dick hilgers of the cultured reef these questions...but you know I am getting the feeling that if we were to do what you asked and it came up in our favor...there would be something else wrong with it and you wouldn't be satisfied ever...also the turbulent surface would have the same effect on the MH as LED and once again i think the LED would penetrate through it better....i will agree that perhaps the spread to the outer areas is less with an LED...i only say this because the do shine straight down...so they have slightly less spread...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10113626#post10113626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stimpy4242
Now you can see why I said from the beginning all your numbers are worthless...bottom line, once again, is my solaris is growing my corals just fine, they have not suffered they seem like they are doing just as fine, maybe a little better...but certainly not worse...else I would hook up a MH system...don't want to lose my system over pride...but I do think in a year they will be even better because of the naturally created environment...

I barely can make out grammar you post last but think I know you what said:

<font size="1" color="#0000FF">Your post is in violation of the <a href="/agreement.php">terms and conditions of use</a> of this web site and has been edited. Further violations will result in revocation of your posting privileges.</font> I know my equipment, and I know how to use it. I can run calculations, and if I am speculating, I will say so. If I am unsure of a number, or it is an estimate, I will say so, but based on how people calculate turnover, dividing pump output by tank volume, yes, I have 80-90x turnover. This tank is a 40B, with a 8x8x16"h section in the back corner blocked off for an overflow and some equipment inside of it. That leaves us with a 40B, 36x18x16, which actually comes to 44.8g, but glass thickness puts us right at 40g. Then minus the overflow, which is 4.4g, so we are really talking about a 35g here, and I could even keep going and take out the sand and rock from the tank's calculations, but that doesnt seem to be the accepted way to do it. For your sake, I wont even take out the overflow, and calculate with the whole 40gallons...

And you may not be able to see it in that pic so well, [violation]

Yep, thats a Tunze 6100 running with the shroud from a 6200 to spread out the flow, and get more flow.

Lets see... so thats 250gph from the overflow, plus 3170gph from the tunze (pulse flow for about 15 seconds on 100%, 15 seconds at 40% is what I usually set it at, but some days, I just leave it at 100%), and who knows how much from using the 6200 shrouds which allow for more flow.

So lets see here... 3170 + 250 (could even be more), divided by 40g.... hmmm.... thats a turnover of 85.5x If I wanted, I could say divided by 35g, and thats 97x turnover, and like I said, only tunze knows about how much extra flow the larger shroud gives me.

As you can see, I have a few temmincki fairy wrasses, an angel, gamma, cardinal (overcrowded, but I have to get the stuff now, just before the new tank is up because I would rather get everything now when its 1/10th the cost from the wholesaler in LA than later on). They are all happy and love the flow. As for corals, I am growing SPS everywhere and they love it because they grow like weeds. The only coral that doesnt seem to like it so much is the pom pom xenia, but I could care less about that crap.

The new tank, 48x30x20h will have three 6100s, and either a wavebox or a SEIO polario.

So yeah... next time you want to try attacking my credibility, come up with something better than 'jokes' and calling my numbers 'worthless', got it? Are there any other numbers you want me to back up here? I have flow meters, a PAR meter just like the ones in the photos, a spectroradiometer, reflectors and ballasts and bulbs on hand... and I know how to use them.

I think Bean covered the rest about how the reflectors and ballasts arent the best ones around.

 

[hahnmeister]

Here, you wanna compare... here is a real halide comparison...

These bulbs are in a reflector that is 7" above the water (putting the bulb at what... 9-10"? This is the same 40B again, so 16" total height, but only about 14" to the sand from the waterline.

First, an EVC 20,000K 250wattDE at 5 months on a HQI ballast in a PFO mini-pendant... alot like the one you posted before...

Based on the comparative output of a pheonix (I have 3 pheonix bulbs on hand, a G-man 14,500K, two Ushio 14,000K, hamilton 14,000K, an extra EVC 20,000K, XM 20,000K, XM 10,000K... so you name it, I can test it), these are the output numbers from it...

You think 170 is good at 17"? Its poor. Im getting well over 200 on the bottom of a 40B with a pheonix and HQI combo. If you like, I can hook up the LumenarcDE again and take some PAR readings with that reflector... I can pretty much promise you peak PAR levels in the 300 range at the bottom with this reflector.... and an output similar to this across an even broader patch.

Here, just for kicks, Ill ressurect this old photo... a 6x39wattT5 setup, without even the most potent bulbs (I know there are 4x39wattT5 combos with more light output by just using sun and blue+ bulbs... Im using two G-man actinics, so kiss my output goodye!). These bulbs are about 4" above the water, and 14" to the sand again... so look at it... blue as all heck, and still... Im beating the LED's with more distance, water (which blocks about 20-30% right at the surface), and a bit more than 17" of distance... and a much better spread of light. Heck, this is a Tek light too... not even close to the best.

 

[Zoom]

I don't use a chiller my tank stays at 78F-79F year around yes i have all the goods running and no Fans....The AC is at 75F even the AC at 77F... i never saw the tank more than 80F .

 

[BeanAnimal]

Also, when it comes to light penetration, the wider the angle at which light hits the surface of water the less amount of light that penetrates and the more that reflects, this would argue that an LED penetrating straight down will get the most light through...

What in the world are you talking about?

The idea of a properly designed reflector is to FOCUS the light. THAT MEANS CONFINE IT TO AN AREA.

LAST I CHECKED LIGHT TRAVELED IN A STRAIGHT LINE (other than near a black hole or other massive body).

LAST I CHECKED an LED was a point source and the fixture we are talking about is very narrow compared to a well designed reflector. Therefore the well designed reflector with the POINT SOURCE inside casts more vertical light than the point source that relies on beam spread to cover the tank.

In other words, yes the closer to vertical the beam of light, the better the chance it will penetrate.

BUT you have it backwards as to which light does a better job at the task.

I can draw a picture if you like

 

[BeanAnimal]

Also, I am tired of arguing the cost efficiency...my corals are doing awesome and I am saving 40% in elec costs

/quote] 40% of what? Please post exactly what stuff was replaced by exactly what stuff.

..also I don't have to buy bulbs, or worry that light quality is decreasing toward the end of its life span....which is multiple times over the course of five years with mh bulbs and more for the actinics...where mine occurs once...

1) The output of the LEDs will drop and change spectrum. They ARE still phosphor based devices. They are being driven VERY hard. That certainly shortens their lifespan.

2) Read the most recent MH bulb article at (RK MAG I think) Several MH bulbs were tested over a few years. They do certainly drop some output, but in many cases not enough to warrant changing them until easily 24 months out.

Ohh but you say they have REDUCED output? Is that wat the LED fixture is compared to the MH? So over time the MH bulbs may be close t the lowered output of the LED fixture.

Now how do your cost "savings" and "total cost of ownership" look?

My BGE bills tells me I am saving money...I also know that I won't have to buy bulbs, or spend time getting them in six months and a year...there are advantages and I think you are afraid to admit them.

It depends on WHAT you compare it too. That is the PROBLEM. You guys want to keep comparing this over priced light to a JUNK MH system and declaring it is better.

Yes the are kind of cool. They have some nice features and they are certainly better than some lighting setups. They are NOT magic and they are not the next best thing in lighting yet.

 

[Musho3210]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1132888

That thread shows a few 250 watt MH light over a 10 gallon tank, the owner reports no heat issues.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah those people must be crazy...why would they even invent something like that...just crazy...oh wait thats because unless you want a 20" industrial fan blowing over your water you need one...

Um I cool 150 Gallons of water with (4) computer case fans. NOT high performance models, just (4) low quality case fans from old gateway computers.

Read on:

thats why...and if you are telling me you are using 250w MH lights over your setup and running a few pumps and such that you are just using a dinky computer fan, please show me pictures and include the temperature read out in them...because it just physically can not be...unless your house is 40 degrees...and I am exagerating so don't go crazy.

No you just don't understand they physics.

MY system has 150 gallons of water. I run (2) Velocity T4 pumps, (1) OR3700 Needle Wheel, (4) Maxijets and (2) 150W MH fixtures on Magnetic ballasts.

My MH fixtures are 3" from the water surface and the tank is an in-wall 75. That means a little over 5" is covered with the wall framing. There is an internal overflow that is the length of the tank. That means that my ROIII fit between the wall and the overflow with 2" to spare (1" on each side). THERE IS NOWHERE FOR THE HEAT TO GO BUT INTO THE WATER.

My tank runs at 79. The HOUSE temperature is at 76 degrees but the inwall fishroom hovers at a little over 80-82 degrees. If I turn OFF the fans, the tank temperature will rise to 83 degrees in matter of hours. It will be 88 degrees by the end of the light cycle.

How in the world do I keep it at 79 degrees?

(4) computer case fans aimed at the thin sheet of water in the overflow.

I evaporate 5-6 gallons of water A DAY.

The latent heat of evaporation of water varies by what is in the water and the temperature, but lets say at 85 degrees it is around 1045 BTUs per POUND.

Water weighs 8.33 LBS a gallon. So about 8705 BTUs per gallon of water evaporated.

I evaporate 5 Gallons, so that is 43524 BTUs of cooling for my tank. The case fans are only a few watts each.

150 Gallons of water is 1250 POUNDS. That means to drop my tank 1 Degree F, I need to evaporate just over a pound of water.

I hope you can see that evaporative cooling is EXTREMELY EFFICIENT.

To keep the moisture out of the house I use a very low wattage Panasonic bathroom fan to vent the moist air outside of the fishroom. I would not need the fan if the warden allowed me to live in comfort and set the AC t 74 degrees where I like it. Then the AC would dehumidify the house AND keep my comfortable.


Anyway.... you just learned something so you should be happy.

 

[Musho3210]

chillers are for people who dont want there water to evaporate and are willing to spend loads of cash to reach that objective.

 

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10116704#post10116704 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Musho3210
chillers are for people who dont want there water to evaporate and are willing to spend loads of cash to reach that objective.

And also for those of us in the South who have large sumps in unairconditioned garages.

 

[Gobie74]

Guess I'll just unsubscribe. I came here for information, not an argument which is the direction this seems to be going.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10115732#post10115732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stimpy4242
will you agree that very few reef keepers have that turnover? I think for people doing sps they are looking at 40-50x maybe a little more...mainstream is between 20-30x though....

You should really read up some more. I've got over 100. Most of the guys in the SPS forum are 60+




Also, I run a pair of 250 HQIs on a 58gallon tank, and dont need a chiller. I dont even run any fans.

 

[prugs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10117109#post10117109 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gobie74
Guess I'll just unsubscribe. I came here for information, not an argument which is the direction this seems to be going.

When I look at all the info provided in this thread, I must have saved thousands of dollars.
I wanted to get the actual wattage use from a 6' H4 Solaris fixture, & ended up getting sooo much more.

 

[Jasonincuritiba]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10116704#post10116704 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Musho3210
chillers are for people who dont want there water to evaporate and are willing to spend loads of cash to reach that objective.

Dont post something you know nothing about. Most people that add chillers do it to lower the temperature of their tank not prevent water evaporation. If your tank runs hot it does matter how much water you add it will still be hot. If the ambient temperature where the tank is located gets above 80 (summers, south west, south, south east, north west, etc) your tank is going to heat up more due to powerheads, skimmer, lights, etc. You will lose corals as your tank goes above 85, $500 or more on a chiller is well worth the investment instead of risking losing thousands of dollars on corals and livestock.

 

[prugs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10118135#post10118135 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jasonincuritiba
Dont post something you know nothing about. Most people that add chillers do it to lower the temperature of their tank not prevent water evaporation. If your tank runs hot it does matter how much water you add it will still be hot. If the ambient temperature where the tank is located gets above 80 (summers, south west, south, south east, north west, etc) your tank is going to heat up more due to powerheads, skimmer, lights, etc. You will lose corals as your tank goes above 85, $500 or more on a chiller is well worth the investment instead of risking losing thousands of dollars on corals and livestock.

Have you even tried evaporative cooling?