Solving my dino problem... I hope

[crichard6069]

Hi all - I've been battling dinos on and off since October of last year in my 70g cube. I have not taken any of the more drastic measures yet as I was hoping it would correct itself with GFO and keeping my water quality high.

As things have gone downhill with the tank due to the dinos I've become quite discouraged and am now ready to take some more drastic measures. I decided it would be good to start a thread to post my progress and to help keep me from getting utterly discouraged with this horrifying bacteria.

Here is what I've done thus far:
-I've tried lights out a few times, though half-heartedly. I've simply turned my lights off for a few days without actually wrapping the tank in black plastic trash bags (allowing daylight in). This seemed to only buy me time..

-I removed my shallow sand bed and went barebottom. After much research I figured it was worth a shot since BB's tend to run "cleaner". Well, that was 4 months ago and my dinos are now all over the bottom glass.

-I tried dosing H202 (hydrogen peroxide) and didn't notice any real difference.

That brings me to the past week. I've begun tinkering with raising my PH to the 8.6 level as described in the following reefkeeping.com article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

I created a 1 gallon drip out of a spring water bottle and dripped some kent marine buffer (diluted with RO/DI water) into the tank getting the PH to around 8.6. Sadly I couldn't accurately get a PH reading with my cheap API test kit and had a discouraging loss of a couple fish (first fish loss in a LOOONG time).

So my way forward is this:

-I've ordered a digital PH meter so I can get a precise reading.
-I ordered some pickling lime which arrived today so I can create a solid limewater drip to maintain a steady 8.6 PH
-After my PH meter arrives and I start to steadily raise the PH I'll be wrapping the tank and sump in black trash bags and going true "lights out".

Here are a couple of pictures of the dinos today. My hope is that in a couple of weeks I can post the same pictures and see a positive change because my next step may be breaking it all down and starting over..

And the good old pickling lime from the reefkeeping article mentioned above:

Wish me luck... I think I'll need it..

 

[bach2pilot]

I did a three day blackout, a good vacuuming of the top of my DSB, installed GFO and UV, and have been holding my ph around 8.3...It's been about 5 days and the dinos haven't returned so far. Good Luck.

 

[crichard6069]

That's a good idea.. I should get my UV running again too. Can't hurt at this point. I plan on manually removing as much as I possibly can prior to starting my attack.

After your blackout did you start the lighting again slowly? Or go right back to a full light cycle?

 

[reefgeezer]

IMO, raising pH with buffer is a bad idea. I think you will raise the alkalinity way too high in the process. Kalkwasser is a more balanced approach to raising pH, but can still cause issues if calcium and alkalinity are driven too high or pH ri9sses too quickly.

I had a bad case of dinos and used a very strict blackout period to get rid of them. Sucked as much of the dino out as I could and did a 25% water change and then immediately went for 5 days with no light. I covered and wrapped the tank in a black tarp for the duration of the dark period. IMO, you can't do it half way. Total black-out for 5 days.

 

[crichard6069]

IMO, raising pH with buffer is a bad idea. I think you will raise the alkalinity way too high in the process. Kalkwasser is a more balanced approach to raising pH, but can still cause issues if calcium and alkalinity are driven too high or pH ri9sses too quickly.

I had a bad case of dinos and used a very strict blackout period to get rid of them. Sucked as much of the dino out as I could and did a 25% water change and then immediately went for 5 days with no light. I covered and wrapped the tank in a black tarp for the duration of the dark period. IMO, you can't do it half way. Total black-out for 5 days.

Right now my plan is to try and get a stable PH of 8.6 and have the tank wrapped in black plastic trashbags for 4 or 5 days. I'll have to wrap my sump too as it's in the basement. I plan to keep an eye on all of my levels (especially alk) as I do this.

And I do agree.. I can't do lights out half way.. I've tried, multiple times. It doesn't work.

 

[yeldarbj]

I feel your pain. I've been there, I'd say "done that" but should say "still doing that". I've been fighting them for a couple years on/off. I've tried just about everything that is mentioned. They would grow back just about as fast as I could siphon them out. I apparently have an nasty version, Gambierdiscus toxicus, ID'd by Pants.

Sometimes, I get tired of it and just live with them for a while. Some of my sps do great while others just survive and do nothing. I did a 3 day blackout, then half day of blue light, followed by 3 more days of blackout. Coral wasn't happy when it was over but they all survived. The tank looked great for several weeks until the dinos started coming back too. After a few more months, I finally decided it was time to take drastic measures.

I did more blackouts (2 day and 3 day), also used a Marineland diatom filter (with powder) both before and after the blackouts. I also halted water changes. I still cannot report success. I did enough damage that in my most recent battles, my sps started a stn process that I haven't been able to stop. I've lost more than 95% of my sps and chalices. The dinos are not back in forces just yet, but I don't feel they are gone. I think my tank is still trying to establish a new biological balance. The only good is that I feel better about doing 7-10 days of blackouts now.

The diatom filter really helps in physical removal much better than filter socks or filter media. You only have to run it 2-3 hours a day.

I'm seriously contemplating a complete restart, but I would be devastated if they came back again. Plus, the fish, soft coral, and some lps are doing great despite the war.

Thanks for letting me rant.

 

[crichard6069]

I'm seriously contemplating a complete restart, but I would be devastated if they came back again. Plus, the fish, soft coral, and some lps are doing great despite the war.

I've contemplated the same thing (still am considering it to be honest).. but I have the same fear. What if 5 months into the restart they're back? Besides, what exactly defines a restart? Take all of the rocks out and put them in a dark trashcan with water/heater/powerhead for a month? Or let them completely die out?

...and what about the corals? As you said, I've got some LPS doing quite well and I don't want to kill them off. However, if I try and put them in a holding tank I'm worried the dinos will hitch hike. I also don't want to give them to someone cause that's just cruel.

 

[rogermccray]

What I find odd about the whole situation is that I started with rock from your system and have taken frags from you with your water and I have no problems. Hopefully I"m not jinxing myself but it certainly is confusing...

 

[yeldarbj]

That's why I feel there some sort of biological imbalance that allows the dinos to take control. The bacteria/algae in other tanks are able to out-compete the dinos and keep them at bay.

If I restart, I'm bleaching the rock - total kill!!!!, discarding the sand, and starting over with new live rock, new sand, and using some of my bleached rock, basically starting over with a new biological system. If only I had an easy way to keep my 8 fish alive and what's left of my coral. I only have a small quarantine tank.

 

[brandon429]

also know that although a simple h202 dose might not have made a difference, there are several ways of concentrating the treatment using the same dosage you originally tried. after these other methods exhaust, if they dont work, join the peroxide thread in the nanos section with these before pics and we'll tune it that way. we have cured a few dino tanks using the concentration methods. also, we'd have to know if you were using an entry level dose, we have tanks and postings of 4 mls per ten gallons no problem there is a good chance you were using 1 ml to ten gallons, the average starting point.

 

[brandon429]

also we need more pics. with the one above, I would not identify those as dinoflagellates. I call algae, photosynthesis bubbles

 

[yeldarbj]

I've read some of your h202 thread. I went up to 2 ml per 10 gal twice a day for several weeks. I can see how you can spot treat a nano sized tank, but it's just not feasible on 100+ gallons.

I also went through a multi week treatment with Fauna Marin's Ultra AlgaeX that some people have had success with. It only killed a couple starfish, an urchin, and a shrimp. The Dinos came right back.

 

[yeldarbj]

also we need more pics. with the one above, I would not identify those as dinoflagellates. I call algae, photosynthesis bubbles

I do believe those are dinos. They are very similar to what mine look like which have been ID'd via microscope by an expert in the field.

 

[brandon429]

we do spot treatments on 300 gallon tanks, in tank, with tank full of water. it might be buried in page 29 lol but its there. emersed spot treatments are just one option.

also, much of this growth is on back glass where a razor passing would remove most of the invader, then we can chart regrowth rates easily

I would get these id'd the same way. Pants in the chem forum will id fast, only pay for shipping a small vial sample to him. $4 by usps worth the id!

 

[brandon429]

one of the peroxide methods commonly missed in the many pages is full manual removal, then a custom dose of peroxide set to stop regrowth. this is opposite of using enough peroxide to do all the manual removal, again a common approach when skimming the thread. its how most start out, we've developed a lot of inversions and concentration methods since then. Another method is using strategically placed saran wrap as an aquatic tarp, another is turning off pumps during the dose run for a little while and not dosing the tank with full pumps on, its all detailed in submerged spot treatment options.

Continue on with the other options, but before you give in consider a customer dosing of h202 not the common one. It works great...and from pics so far you don't have sensitive corals to the treatment.

 

[ZQ16DP4HxX]

What is your lighting schedule? I fought with them on and off and after reducing my photo period down from 12 hours to 8 hours (6 hours all 8 T5 bulbs, 8 hours 4 bulbs) they went away.

 

[crichard6069]

I will definitely revisit the H202 thread again. I have to admit, I'm guilty of not manually removing the dinos prior to dosing the H202 before. I am going to take out some of my rock and put it in the sump so I can access all areas of the tank (back wall in particular) and do a lot of manual removal.

What is your lighting schedule? I fought with them on and off and after reducing my photo period down from 12 hours to 8 hours (6 hours all 8 T5 bulbs, 8 hours 4 bulbs) they went away.

My lights run for about 6 hours a day right now. I run and LED system and have the blues come on about 20 minutes before the whites. As an FYI, the dinos existed back when I was running 250w MH so I know it isn't related to the LEDs. I switched to LEDs in March of this year. The dinos were present with my 250w MH last october...

I'll get some more pictures later tonight. Kids are giving me fits at the moment.

 

[crichard6069]

Ok so tonight is Wednesday and I've wrapped my tank. Entering a 4 day lights out period. Here is a picture of the wrapped tank... it's just what I always envisioned my tank to be when I entered this hobby! <--sarcasm

Tonight I opted to NOT do a water change based on everything I read about dinos and nutrients. However, I have fresh GFO and fresh carbon running. My ph is running around 8.3 and I've started another drip of limewater to try and up it a bit more during the lights out period (would love to hit 8.6).

We'll see if anything is left alive 4 days from now when I uncover the tank... this is a bit scary. lol.

 

[brandon429]

I think a real lights out is a great non chemical start. you did the real deal man, no shortcutting. painting the outside walls with tar/black urethane would have been better heh but your tarp job will do lol

 

[Squidmotron]

I don't really get the whole covering the tank thing. Simply turn off the lights. Also, if you turn them on for 2 minutes to feed your fish, your Dino's will not suddenly spring to life. I promise.