some real colored lps.

[jaze36]

Thanks for the great examples. A lot of times I go through ebay and the like and see things like that and say to myself "wow lok at that, I've never seen anything like that before, why don't my local stores have stuff like that." Now I know why, thanks for the lesson in photoshop.

 

[organism]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6966599#post6966599 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jaze36
Thanks for the great examples. A lot of times I go through ebay and the like and see things like that and say to myself "wow lok at that, I've never seen anything like that before, why don't my local stores have stuff like that." Now I know why, thanks for the lesson in photoshop.

I completely disagree, I think that the only thing that threads like this do is make people paranoid that every nice coral and its pictures are all of a sudden photoshopped, when only a small minority of them are. Most of the corals that look that nice really are that nice, and the purpose of these witch hunt threads seems extremely questionable when viewed in that light. All of the corals in the first post in this thread could easily exist, it just takes an unscrupulous person to photoshop them into something that they aren't, but to all of a sudden claim that all of the corals that look like that are photoshopped is not only misleading, but very questionably moral. The easiest solution, ask the vendor, check their feedback, and make your own informed decision

 

[jaze36]

I would say it helps people to make sure they research what they buy and be aware that these types of things are possible. It is only a witch hunt if you are a person being hunted. Are you? I do not use any graphics programs and I'm very unaware of their capabilities, so it is very helpful to know that things like that can be done. As for unscruplous people the world is full of them. It is always buyer beware, it helps to know what you have to beware of.

 

[mummra100769]

on ebay right now i can come up with 4-6 really questionable sales going on. these threads are designed to change the standards that corals are sold by. hopefully one day all corals sold will include a flash shot along with the "pretty" shot. it is all about being fair to the buyer and disclosing all possible information related to the sale.

no witch hunts here and little is said about photchopping corals...it is more broad than that. it's about asking for a flash shot or a 10k shot and getting a real idea of what this coral will look like under many different lighting schemes. me myself i like 20k lighting on my tanks but when i take pics i seem to be able to filter out all that blue that blows the colors of corals through the roof....i only want to raise awareness not hunt anybody down. in the end we will all be better for it.

look at it this way if it looks just as good under flash or white lighting then you really have something sweet...right?

 

[organism]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6967605#post6967605 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jaze36
It is only a witch hunt if you are a person being hunted. Are you?

oh, certainly not, but a witch hunt is actually a situation in which even the most innocent can be perceived as being intensely guilty, it has nothing to do with who is being hunted, it is only a witch hunt if you don't know 100% that you are right, and there's an immense planet of difference between thinking and feeling you are right, and knowing 100% that this or that vendor is using photoshopped images. witch hunt, to me, implies that the situation has become "what? a nice picture? get him!"

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6967738#post6967738 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mummra100769
on ebay right now i can come up with 4-6 really questionable sales going on. these threads are designed to change the standards that corals are sold by.

no, it's certainly not why these "threads" of yours are designed, these threads are designed to claim that you know more than the people selling this or that particular coral. Questionable, what is questionable? It means that, in your opinion, the pictures don't portray what they are selling, but they could just as easily be portraying exactly that, while it's completely your right to say that this auction or that auction has a picture that is questionable, why not be truthful, and say that, in your opinion, that coral might be different than what is pictured, but, in reality, you could be completely and utterly wrong in making that statement? I don't see that stated here, only one long thread which should be called "I know better than you do, so take my opinions as fact"

 

[jaze36]

Organism don't you think you are blowing things a little out of proportion. Look at the first post all that was done was take three picture of the same coral in different light and with different camera settings and such. The pictures look totaly different, that coral dosen't look the same in any one of them. To me and I'm sure others that is something good to know, that the tecchnology out there that anyone can get ahold of can make that kind of change. No where was it siad not to buy from ebay or online vendors or discredit every good photo of a coral. It was designed to make people aware, whats wrong with that? Its set up to help people make better decisions on what they buy so they don't get ripped off. No where is it implied that "some one knows better, or know's it all. Why are you being so defensive? Aren't we all here to gain some new knowledge about some aspect of the hobby we wern't awaer of before, can't this fall into this catagory?

 

[organism]

I'm being so defensive because I recall exactly where the last thread like this went, sorry if I came off as hostile or blowing things out of proportion jaze, no hostility was meant towards you whatsoever, just that there's a fine line between showing what can be done with pictures in photoshop, and claiming that this or that auction looks questionable so that it therefore must be questionable, if you read the first post it shows that picture, then goes on to state a few posts later unsure opinion as fact regarding some ebay favia auction, that's where things start to go awry

 

[mummra100769]

well that favia that is spoken of is a shady auction. this is all in my opinion and i do state now and forever that i am not the know all and be all of coral rip offs. i do have a lot of experience in the hobby and have had the chance to see thousands of corals live and in pics. i have a great love for reef photography and reefing in general. this is all our opinions....more times than not that is all we have is our opnion. i make mine based on what i have learned in this hobby over the years (over ten years now) and if we are saying that people are not being taken advantage of at any great rate well that is head in the sand thinking as it is way more often than vendors (online or other wise) like to admit.

let me state now that ever since i incised you by posting that pic from your auction that i am very carefull to accuse any one directly.

 

[2x210g]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6968519#post6968519 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mummra100769
well that favia that is spoken of is a shady auction. this is all in my opinion and i do state now and forever that i am not the know all and be all of coral rip offs.

I totally agree with Organism, claiming a auction/seller to be shady or
"that auction looks questionable so that it therefore must be questionable". how do you know if they are shady are not, just cause you don't like the picture or the auction. I know what you are doing is good for the reef community but stop accusing other of just because you "THINK " is not right. until you look at that person coral in person are you have that coral under the same lighting, water, etc.... then you should not aware other of the corals. bty 10 years in the hobby is just
1/100 fraction of the hobby.

 

[mummra100769]

wow. two posts and already responding to such a contraversial post. i would bet either.

you do not want to respond under your real account.

or you are a banned member jumping on this thread to try and cause trouble. never would a person who just signs up be so contraversial on his second post. but that is just my opinion. as all this is....if some one wants to hear my opinion then make up their own mind well then that is what i did this for and i am happy. also not once have i singled any one person out on this thread (there are many many favias going right now on ebay).

as far as being in the hobby ten years you are right that it is not very long but i am only in my thirties so it's like 1/3 of my life (i have been in the aquaria hobby for over 20 years but i started in the saltwater side of the hobby in early 1995).

just like me you guys are allowed your opinion.

 

[pondfrog]

What makes these threads hostile and pointless are people like 2x210g who wants to say things without being identified. Not that all people with 1000 posts have valid things to say, but come on why post when it's so painfully obvious what you are doing.

Organism,
I don't see the harm in a thread like this. It was not started to defame anyone, simply raise awareness. For those of us who buy off the internet on a reguloar basis it is painfully obvious what corals are real and what ones are not. For others just getting going it is not always that straight forward.
The key to mummra's response was that IF a coral is as great as you say it is--then fantastic-- it will look great under 10ks or with a white balance shot. So, prove it to us --that it REALLY is a cool coral and give both shots.
If someone is buying the coral for under 20K lights why would they care if a great looking coral under 20K looks lousy under 10Ks. The seller has nothing to lose.

 

[wentreefgirl]

Well I feel enlightened even with the trying to convince otherwise posts. Sorry guys, its helpful and not harmful unless your a seller that is trying to sucker a sucker. Amazing what you can do with photoshop ay.

 

[organism]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6982729#post6982729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wentreefgirl
Well I feel enlightened even with the trying to convince otherwise posts. Sorry guys, its helpful and not harmful unless your a seller that is trying to sucker a sucker. Amazing what you can do with photoshop ay.

oh no, I totally agree, but there's a world of difference between "look what can be done to alter pictures with photoshop, so lets all learn from it" and the thread digressing into, or being originally designed, to state

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6968519#post6968519 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mummra100769
well that favia that is spoken of is a shady auction.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6967738#post6967738 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mummra100769
on ebay right now i can come up with 4-6 really questionable sales going on. these threads are designed to change the standards that corals are sold by.

what standards? the only thing that makes an auction "shady" is personal opinion, unless the guy on ebay says "I photoshopped this coral and it's not the real colors," even implying otherwise is grounds for a lawsuit. these "standards" seem to be coming from nowhere at all, just personal opinion about what is and isn't a pretty coral or a correct picture, what I'm trying to point out is, if you have a self appointed "standards connoisseur," where are those standards coming from? they're invented, right out of thing air, due to personal opinion, and bias over whether or not the colors on a picture are "correct" or "as bright as on the actual coral"
therefore, this thread became exceedingly questionable once "this is a photoshop tutorial" segwayed into "my opinion over other people's possibly entirely accurate pictures"

 

[mummra100769]

see you miss the point. it is my opinion. just about everything is based on someones opinion. if people agree or dis agree then that is up to them.

this thread is to show how easy it is to alter pics and take advantage of hobbyists. i am in no way capable of teaching PS to any body.

as far as standards well they would evolve over time to fit what the consumer wants. like showing a flash shot with every sale. that is a good first standard. offer a flash shot with every 20k sweet shot. i am not the one to make the standards but i do have an opinion and it seems people agree with that opinion.

your view might be tainted for several reasons but i respect it as that is your opinion.

ebay rip offs are all over the place and then the seller will hold thier feed back till you give yours so as to hold you hostage. it happens more and more lately and i myself would like to inform as many hobbyists as i can. as stated before no one selling should have a problem with this as long as the product they sell is as pictured or described.

when we talk lawsuits that is just silly no way have i made myself liable as i did not in any way point my finger at any one individual. even if i did it would just be my opinion and i am allowed that.

 

[organism]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6984499#post6984499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mummra100769
i am not the one to make the standards

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6967738#post6967738 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mummra100769
these threads are designed to change the standards that corals are sold by.

you know, those two statements could be viewed as inherently contradicting...

also, my point of view is simply tainted in the fact that I believe it's no one's right whatsoever to call an auction "shady" without even the smallest shred of evidence, I just don't approve of others trying to impose their own standards onto every auction and picture due to circumstances caused by a very small minority of abusive and greedy sellers on ebay. once an auction or picture needs any self appointed user "watchdog's" seal of approval, this hobby has either digressed beyond reparation, or someone is taking themselves exceedingly way too seriously

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Well, the flash shot thing is good. Truly nice corals look good under flash too.

ZoaID is asking for flash shots with all pic submissions now. So that is the standard for those who post there.

 

[mummra100769]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6985384#post6985384 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
Well, the flash shot thing is good. Truly nice corals look good under flash too.

ZoaID is asking for flash shots with all pic submissions now. So that is the standard for those who post there.

exactly my point. we as a group will decide what the standards are. if an ebayer is honest then any action designed to make it harder for the frauds to profit should be supported. i am not appointing myself the watchdog of anything i am just bringing this problem to the fore front and i would think that "standards" would come from the group as a whole not just one person or even a small group of people making those choices. i do not believe i contradict myself by wanting one of the largest reefing communities to make a positive change in the hobby and the industry. every one (including ebayers and etailers and retailers) should have a choice in how any standards went. change is for the most part good (most times) and with positive changes that make it harder for the "shady" coral sellers out there well how can that be a bad thing?

 

[Mr. Ugly]

 

[organism]

ok, this thread is like talking to a brick wall... it's simple if you think about it, every vendor or ebayer who doesn't post a flash shot will now look shady, because obviously they must be trying to rip people off if they aren't taking a flash shot. how is this the case? It isn't, a truly nice coral can look entirely bleached under the flash of a truly nice camera, believe me, I know, I've taken more than enough very nice coral pictures in both flash and non flash that made the coral look awful under no flash, and awful under flash, each coral is different. the only thing that makes a coral shady is the person selling it, nothing else does, there's one shady guy out of every 100 or more vendors doctoring pictures, or taking blue pictures of corals to make them look unrealistically colored. once you begin to take this thread seriously, you notice that it isn't really about helping distinguish the shady sellers out there, it's about making everyone that falls under these watchdog definitions the "shady seller," where that's 100% not the case. someone is taking themselves way too seriously in incessantly posting these "what's good for me is good for the majority" threads, and the napoleanic complex is finally starting to come to light, I don't mind being the only one arguing it, what I do know, and learned very well, is that when this self aggrandized "watchdog" sets his sights on someone, even if completely wrong, all of a sudden there comes zero accountability, and a "watchdog" with zero accountability, ie, if I say it then so it must be, isn't a watchdog, it's a witch hunt. With setting these "standards" comes the responsibility to point out that, while posting a flash shot may or may not make a vendor non-shady (the shady guy will still photoshop the flash shot people!), not posting a flash shot by no means makes the vendor shady, which is exactly the opposite of what's being inferred here. The shady guy will be the shady guy regardless of any standards, and I think everyone is smart enough to realize this. I know that there are very intelligent users posting in this thread, and they seem to be missing what the hidden point of the thread, and the many like it posted by one user, is. I'm going to add that, true, there are people that agree with this thread, but I've gotten, hang on, let me count... 9 emails and 4 pm's from different people that didn't want to be persecuted for posting on here that are in complete disagreeance with these threads and their relevance to the reefing community. once you begin to doubt the validity of every picture that isn't completely immersed in flash, you cast doubt on the hundreds of completely legitimate vendors out there, and that does a huge disservice not only to the vendors, but to the hobby as well, hopefully those intelligent enough will see past this thread to see it for exactly what it is

 

[mummra100769]

come on man. you are now saying i have a hidden agenda? it is what it is...a way to show how easy it is to doctor a pic and take advantage of a person no more than that.

your estimate of how many doctored pics are out there is an understatement by far and i can see where you would be reluctant to have flash shots as an option but anything that enhances consumer confidence should be a good thing...right?

maybe it's as simple as just becoming a better photographer and that would also benifit the consumer.

lastly i am just voicing my opinion and you can either agree or dis agree. that is fine and i respect both sides. better yet vendors should lead the charge in improving coral pictorials so to further enhance consumer confidence.