Some zoanthus and leather coral unhappy

[Kirino]

Hello, let me begin with wishing everyone a very good new year in the near future. I have some questions

- Would anyone know why the left section of my zoanthus looks like this? They have been like that for a week. The other side is fine and so is the frag that's located on the right side. The other type of zoanthus on the left also looks fine.
- Why is my leather on the left staying withdrawn. There is a frag of this one on the other side of the tank, showing the same behavior. That other one is a lot more shaded than this one. Which makes me think it's not the lighting. Just a week ago they were both still open and twice the size.

What has changed:
- well I did raise the Calcium over the course of 3 weeks. It was only 350, while now it's at 430. For some reason the magnesium was 1500 back then and it still is now ... not sure how to lower that and if I have to or not. The optimal range is supposedly 1300 max. pH is always in the range of 8,25-8,3. This is the tank that used to have very high phosphates and nitrates, and while the phosphates remain pretty high, the nitrates are in a much safer range for a long time.
- I also removed the last fish from this tank 2 weeks ago, it's currently making the transition to the new main display. The idea is to keep the current tank fish-less for 4 months, to eliminate any left over fish parasites, so I can eventually use these corals in the new main display.
- There were 2 glass panes on top of this tank, combined with some net sections, which I removed now that the fish is out.

 

[griss]

What specifically are you nitrate and phosphate readings?

The Zoas look like something is irritating them. Sweeper tentacles or a pest possibly. Try observing the tank after lights out with a red light flashlight.

The leathers I’m not sure but your answer to the nitrate/phosphate question might provide some insight.

Try mixing up a new batch of saltwater and testing the Mg. See what the levels are in the newly mixed batch. If it’s under 1500, the Mg levels will lower over time with water changes.

 

[Kirino]

Well I have one Nitrate test in the low ranges, where it indicates the max of 4 ppm and one in the high ranges that indicates below 10 so it's somewhere in-between those. This is the case for a while now. Keeping in mind when I got this tank it was insanely high maxing out the high range test at a 100, but it hasn't been that high since my post on that topic. The phosphates is a similar story, and reads 1 ml/L no matter how many water changes I do since I got this tank. Probably still leaching from the rocks.

 

[Anemone]

I'd be looking at night (as Griss suggested), specifically for sweeper tentacles from that torch/candy cane-ish coral.

Otherwise, you could have a Bobbit worm that came in on your rock or coral. If so, it might have gotten big enough to start munching on your zoas. Look for that after lights out as well.

Kevin

 

[Pacman562]

What is your sg @?

 

[Kirino]

Sorry I've been sick, but it looks like the leather is back to normal. For whatever reason it closed up for a few weeks, shed a ton of slime and is now extending again. Both of them.

I haven't been able to spot any sweepers, but I've moved the Zoas out of range of the candy. Let's see how it evolves.

What's sg

 

[griss]

Hope you’re feeling better. Yeah, Leathers sometimes do that.

SG = specific gravity / salinity

 

[Kirino]

Salinity is 35 every week. Calcium is still around 400, magnesium still over 1500 (what the hell). pH 8,2, phosphate still too high at 1 and nitrates around 20 since forever. The last two have always been an issue, no amount of water changes seemingly fixes that.

Sadly enough the zoas have closed entirely and haven't opened in 2 weeks.
The leathers look super good and are huge now, weirdly enough.
Another batch of zoas is doing great and are multiplying like crazy. Serieusly they want from 8 heads to 20 in a month.
Some of my kenia trees look shriveled up on some days, while others look fine.

I have no clue why only those particular zoas are doing so badly. They are the ones that have been in the tank the longest.
A week ago I did a 50% water change, to no avail. What steps can I still take?

Last note: there are no longer fish in the system.

 

[griss]

I’m a little stumped on this one, weird.

Possibly the high Mg but, that said, hobby grade Mg tests are notoriously inaccurate so

 

[Kirino]

Well there is a bunch of things that might be an issue, with the focus on might:
- amphipods: there's a bunch of them now that the fish are gone. I've spotted some walking atop the closed zoas. Not sure if they are closed because they are there, or if they are there because they are closed
- algea, there are some algea on the base and on the zoas, again not sure if the algea are the issue, or if they are there because the zoas are closed for so long. I've tried brushing them off. Some of the zoas open just a tiny, tiny little bit now but still looks mostly closed
- chemical warfare, some of the leathers might be going on the offensive

So yea, keeping in mind this zoa species was fine up till recently, I'm thinking "what has changed". The absence of fish is a big one, which has caused algea and amphipods to run more rampant then before. Hard to fix the amphipods when I have to stay fishless for at least another month and a half, preferably two months to kill any potential fish parasites.

 

[Kirino]

So I've been browsing a lot of the posts on here and the net in general. Allelopathic keeps coming up. Apparently my Kenia trees could be the issue? There definitely are a lot more of them then before. I'm not sure, but I've added fresh carbon. Let's see what happens. If there is no improvement by the weekend, I'm considering setting up a quarantine tank and moving a zoa frag there.

 

[shred5]

As far as leathers go they just do that sometimes.
I have had one leather in my tank that rarely shows polyps and has grown massively.
I have another that has not shown any since being in the tank and did just recently start to open up. Even in the ocean leathers do not always open. I have seen photos of leathers in the ocean with two next to each others and one is open and other is not.
Simply could be a fish picks on the polyps or one rest on them so they stay closed. Check at night because allot of corals do not open their polyps during the day because of fish nip at them in the day.. Also food in the ocean is more abundant at night and because of these two things allot of corals are trained to only open at night.
That said it really also could be a problem too. Sometime you may have to move a coral or it is a sign of infection.

Now Zoas are a weird coral to crack. Sometimes they grow like crazy and become a pest while other times they just melt. sometime they grow for a long time and then just melt. I honestly think zoas at times can be one of the hardest corals to keep. They seem prone to bacteria infections and I have had to dip them. The thing with zoas is there are allot of different ones and they do not all like the same conditions. You may have to play with lighting and flow.

The thing is we are keeping corals in a little box of corals that would never be found near each other in the wild. I mean we are keeping corals that are found at all different depths, different flows, different lighting, and even temps.. Sometime it is aggression with one coral attacking another. Sometimes it is a fish or invert that does not belong. Sometimes it is a pest so examine the coral closely during the day and at night since allot are nocturnal... Sometimes corals do not do well in our tank and losses happen because we can not provide the conditions for that particular coral and the rest of the coral. It just happens sometimes.

I mean if you ever scuba dive or at least watch dive videos you only see certainly corals in certain areas and they do not grow at other areas and there is a reason for that. Really depends on the corals range and how well they can adapt to other conditions.


Allopathy certainly is a thing and could affect the tank but I rarely see a issue with other softie's but certainly needs research. Corals are not the only one who use allopathy, certain algae do to. Also it has never been proven that carbon can remove these compounds but it may. If anyone has seen any studies on carbon removing them I would love to see them. I would imagine that ozone would probably be more affective for neutralizing these compounds. UV could possibly be too. This is a area that surely needs study and could lead allot of insight into death is our aquarium.


Lack of nutrient's could play a part since you mention lack of fish. Corals need phosphate and a nitrogen source like every living thing.


Best thing you can do is move corals around and try a different area. Different neighbor, different light, different flow. Check for pest both day and night. Do a large water change if you suspect allopathy. A water change is one way you know for certain it is removed. Add some carbon and Polyfilters, I run both at all times.
Polyfilters are known to have good chemical absorption of certain compounds, contaminates and heavy metals that can build up and the added benefit is they change colors depending on what it is removing sometimes. I mean who knows bad salt, something was in the air or sprayed around the tank etc. Just good precaution even if there is no issues.

It certainly goes without saying make sure all your water chemistry is right DKH, calcium, salinity, nitrates etc.. Make sure your test kits are up to date and good. I have had bad test kits. Make sure anything used for testing is calibrated right.

 

[shred5]

I’m a little stumped on this one, weird.

Possibly the high Mg but, that said, hobby grade Mg tests are notoriously inaccurate so

This is true but they are also hard to read. Also more steps for something to go wrong or one drop of reagent is bigger than the last.
Most hobby grade kits in general are not accurate but close enough if preformed right.

 

[T Diddy]

As far as leathers go they just do that sometimes.
I have had one leather in my tank that rarely shows polyps and has grown massively.
I have another that has not shown any since being in the tank and did just recently start to open up. Even in the ocean leathers do not always open. I have seen photos of leathers in the ocean with two next to each others and one is open and other is not.
Simply could be a fish picks on the polyps or one rest on them so they stay closed. Check at night because allot of corals do not open their polyps during the day because of fish nip at them in the day.. Also food in the ocean is more abundant at night and because of these two things allot of corals are trained to only open at night.
That said it really also could be a problem too. Sometime you may have to move a coral or it is a sign of infection.

Now Zoas are a weird coral to crack. Sometimes they grow like crazy and become a pest while other times they just melt. sometime they grow for a long time and then just melt. I honestly think zoas at times can be one of the hardest corals to keep. They seem prone to bacteria infections and I have had to dip them. The thing with zoas is there are allot of different ones and they do not all like the same conditions. You may have to play with lighting and flow.

The thing is we are keeping corals in a little box of corals that would never be found near each other in the wild. I mean we are keeping corals that are found at all different depths, different flows, different lighting, and even temps.. Sometime it is aggression with one coral attacking another. Sometimes it is a fish or invert that does not belong. Sometimes it is a pest so examine the coral closely during the day and at night since allot are nocturnal... Sometimes corals do not do well in our tank and losses happen because we can not provide the conditions for that particular coral and the rest of the coral. It just happens sometimes.

I mean if you ever scuba dive or at least watch dive videos you only see certainly corals in certain areas and they do not grow at other areas and there is a reason for that. Really depends on the corals range and how well they can adapt to other conditions.


Allopathy certainly is a thing and could affect the tank but I rarely see a issue with other softie's but certainly needs research. Corals are not the only one who use allopathy, certain algae do to. Also it has never been proven that carbon can remove these compounds but it may. If anyone has seen any studies on carbon removing them I would love to see them. I would imagine that ozone would probably be more affective for neutralizing these compounds. UV could possibly be too. This is a area that surely needs study and could lead allot of insight into death is our aquarium.


Lack of nutrient's could play a part since you mention lack of fish. Corals need phosphate and a nitrogen source like every living thing.


Best thing you can do is move corals around and try a different area. Different neighbor, different light, different flow. Check for pest both day and night. Do a large water change if you suspect allopathy. A water change is one way you know for certain it is removed. Add some carbon and Polyfilters, I run both at all times.
Polyfilters are known to have good chemical absorption of certain compounds, contaminates and heavy metals that can build up and the added benefit is they change colors depending on what it is removing sometimes. I mean who knows bad salt, something was in the air or sprayed around the tank etc. Just good precaution even if there is no issues.

It certainly goes without saying make sure all your water chemistry is right DKH, calcium, salinity, nitrates etc.. Make sure your test kits are up to date and good. I have had bad test kits. Make sure anything used for testing is calibrated right.

Lots of good insight there. I’m no expert on zoanthus, but I do know encrusting sps. Most will do just fine in lower than recommended flow. The problem is that detritus can build up and cause die off/ infection. I would think that to be particularly true for zoanthids, as the larger polyps and taller stalks could easily trap debris and detritus at their base

 

[Kirino]

I sure appreciate your lengthy reply. Besides the fish leaving there isn't a significant change. Values are still testing about the same as ever. I've been doing more water changes then usual, but to no avail. The extra carbon just went in. We'll see what it brings. There could be a buildup of something I can't detect, but who knows.

Here's a picture of today. The leather on the left is back to looking huge. The rest of the corals look good. Since this week the other zoa (orange on the left) isn't looking as great as before. And the zoa in the middle, if you can spot it, is as you can see just looking horrible.

Algae are definitely a nuisance with the yellow tang moved, but still controllable. I'll probably move a set of zoa's to a separate tank.

 

[shred5]

I sure appreciate your lengthy reply. Besides the fish leaving there isn't a significant change. Values are still testing about the same as ever. I've been doing more water changes then usual, but to no avail. The extra carbon just went in. We'll see what it brings. There could be a buildup of something I can't detect, but who knows.

Here's a picture of today. The leather on the left is back to looking huge. The rest of the corals look good. Since this week the other zoa (orange on the left) isn't looking as great as before. And the zoa in the middle, if you can spot it, is as you can see just looking horrible.

Algae are definitely a nuisance with the yellow tang moved, but still controllable. I'll probably move a set of zoa's to a separate tank.

View attachment 32397678

I do not see allot of algae in the tank pictures. This last pic i see some macro algae just below the zoas. Some macro algae when it grows close to a coral can irritate it and also use allopathy and burn it. Honestly your tank looks pretty good in that picture.

Personally I like some algae in my tanks both macro and micro. Macro is usually harder to grow depending on fish and other herbivores. It adds biodiversity and it also is food for allot of the critters in the tank not just fish. I try not to have a sterile tank. You do not want algae out of control and over growing stuff but a little is good in my opinion.

I think the real problem is going to be that green star polyp. Once it grows up close to another coral it can really affect the corals it touches. I have some in one of our nanos because the wife likes it. It has now encroached on a few corals. Best to grow it on a island and watch it because it can grow across sand bed or at least on a rock that can be removed so you can trim it back.

 

[Kirino]

Yea there was some detritus actually under the orange zoa, which I cleaned up last weekend. They might be a bit irritated from that.

Thx. Yea the macro is usually in a floating box in the back, serving kinda as a refugium but inside the tank, it's a tiny piece that got loose and attached it in that spot last weekend. It's insane how quick it grows. You can't tell from the picture, but the star polyp is on a separate plateau rock. I intend to keep it that way and avoid overgrowth. There is some bubble algae (I think) on the back wall. Some of it is on the outcrops of the star polyp. But since it's the star polyp I don't mind all that much.

 

[Kirino]

So my purple lord of the ring zoas and the orange eagles moved to my new display a while ago. The purple ones were closed for months while the orange ones multiplied like crazy. It took a very long time but the purple ones eventually opened up.

So I´m very happy they didn´t die.

In the new tank they have better lights. Visually the colors are way better in this tank compared to the same zoas that are still in my older tank. For example the orange zoas do not have the green edge color in my other tank.

Since this is a new tank, I´m still strugling with all sorts of algea, but it is manageable. Both tanks also switched to aqua forest reef salt.