Splitting Toadstool Leather

[eperez25]

I recently purchased a two-headed Toadstool Leather coral. I have noticed that one head seems to be prompted up fairly nicely. The other is reaching in the opposite direction to the point where it seems to want to detach itself from the body of the coral.

Every picture that I have seen of a Toadstool shows them having one cup. Is it normal that they be wanting to split? Should I help it? It seems to be splitting right at the base of the coral.

 

[eperez25]

Here is a pic

 

[tinyreef]

Re: Splitting Toadstool Leather

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7719759#post7719759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eperez25
Every picture that I have seen of a Toadstool shows them having one cup. Is it normal that they be wanting to split? Should I help it? It seems to be splitting right at the base of the coral.

toadies come in varying morphs due to environment, history (injury, illness, environment-again, etc.), age, and species.

it's normal for a toadie to split by pinching off a section at the top. they can also grow out a mini-polyp/stalk. they can also branch off by pinching at the base and basically halving itself.

there's a couple of species that naturally look like a "cup" or "vase-like" shape when mature, so that's a "normal" shape too.

can you post a pic showing the whole coral? i can't really tell the point/issue from the one above. the forefront half is leaning and the background half is upright, i guess? they both look ok-ish. the epoxy is for attaching or pushing?

 

[eperez25]

For attaching. I am sure it attached itself already, but I figured I would let it sit there for awhile. I also thought it would help get that other stalk upright.

My main problem is that I don't know what this thing "should" look like. Every species that I look up doesn't look anything like these two cups I bought. The polyps are more extended now than when it was at the store, but again I don't know if that is a good thing.

What you are seeing right there is the entire coral, but I will try to post a better pick that shows the entire thing. What I was trying to point out what the substance that was starting to come up through thr tissue where they both branch out from.

 

[eperez25]

Here are some more pics. If you notice, the skin is tearing at the base and is exposion its interior.

 

[tinyreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7721241#post7721241 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eperez25
My main problem is that I don't know what this thing "should" look like. Every species that I look up doesn't look anything like these two cups I bought. The polyps are more extended now than when it was at the store, but again I don't know if that is a good thing.

there are around 50-species of sarcophyton. some will say 30 or so and some may say over 60. so you will definitely have issues on ID'ing them.

some may say sclerite ID'ing is the way but besides the tedious process (imo) sclerite ID'ing is also sometimes suspect. sometimes they are 100% accurate (distinctive) though.

obvious, morphological cues are more reliable imo but heavily dependent on age. but i would be the first to concede that even "obvious" morphological cues are not 100% reliable.

in another thread here recently, i saw a very similar sarco. i guesslabeled it s. cornispiculatum. i wouldn't guarantee that though but yours resembles it very closely imo. but yours and the other coral have thicker edges on the cap than what i think cornispiculatum should have. but coloration, polyp formation, siphonozooids appearance/spacing, seem to make it look as such.

the polyps should be more extended but they're not as far as they should be still. the coral is likely pretty slimey to the touch (comparing to other types, like latum or elegans). i suspect that slime level promotes a fair amount of probiotic issues at the bases though. i'd try more carbon and slightly more flow but clean out the base area some more too.

helping the two halves split may help as well (re-directing their energies) but you might hold off on that until trying the other suggestions. hth

 

[eperez25]

I guess I should have followed my instincts when I saw it at the store. It didn't look like it was in good shape. It is mine now so I am trying my best to understand it.

I was able to clean out the base a bit and what came out was a ton of just nasty stuff. I am hoping it make a turnaround.

 

[tinyreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7724219#post7724219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eperez25
I guess I should have followed my instincts when I saw it at the store. It didn't look like it was in good shape. It is mine now so I am trying my best to understand it.

don't worry, we've all done that. often, it's more fulfilling (imo) to nurse something back than getting it "fresh".

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7724219#post7724219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eperez25
I was able to clean out the base a bit and what came out was a ton of just nasty stuff. I am hoping it make a turnaround.

i'd give it moderate flow but not too much, 3"~4"/sec..

also keep an eye out for anything that might be munching on the coral. sometimes i've seen partially retracted polyps as a sign of irritation (parasite or coralivore).

another warning sign i've seen in similar sarcos is a wrinkling of the stalk skin. it should stay plump and smooth, wrinkling is not a good sign.

 

[eperez25]

That reference you just made to flow, how are you measuring that? When I read descriptions such as high flow, low flow, intermediate flow, it really bugs me because I can't yet identify what each of those means.

 

[tinyreef]

i've usually quantified cryptic flow as <1"/sec., slow flow as 1"~2"/sec., moderate flow as 3"~4"/sec., and high flow as 5"+/sec..

i measure/calculate flow rate by timing a particle in the water flowing between two points in the water.

 

[eperez25]

bump...there has not beem much of a change with this coral and it has been over 1 month already.

 

[tinyreef]

have you thought about slicing the shared base at the splitting point? are you looking to speed up the split or just improve the polyp expansion?

splits can take a very long time, sometimes years in some cases (for me).

polyp expansion can also remain somewhat recessed (like in your pictures) also for years in some cases (also for me). this isn't the norm but not unheard of ime.

are you running any carbon or chemical filtration? i should've recommended that before but the discussion didn't seem as much a "issue" problem as ID'ing. (maybe it's a sarcophyton cinereum)

 

[eperez25]

I run carbon and always have. I have this thing sandwiched between some Xenia and a branched frogspawn. Do you think that has something to do with it?

I will tell you one thing, the split is coming and at a pretty fast pace. I try to help it along by blowing some of the junk out of the base with a baster. It is determined to split, but I don't know if I ready to help along with the risk of doing something wrong.

I have made it my mission to cater to this thing and make sure it is happy. I hope everyday to some home and see it upright and with its polyps expanded. It does neither these days.

 

[tinyreef]

the initial split, from a single toadie to two heads, is relatively quick. sometimes the split even occurs first in the middle (pinching that goes thru the stalk to make a hole). but the final separation at the base can take a looong time, true not always though.

but that slice/split is what i'm talking about. it's not necessary imo but if you want to separate them and think that's bothering them you could (i don't think it's a significant factor). blowing it clean should be helpful though.

how often do you change the carbon? i try to go no longer than two weeks and vary the amount and frequency depending on the level of "polishing" i'm looking for.

i don't think it's the xenia and i don't think it's the frog either. a trailing stinger injury is pretty obvious but you should take that into account, especially if the toadie is "downwind" from the frog.

i would up the carbon change frequency if you want to do something rather than anything drastic or unsettling (e.g. moving it or others). i thought it still "sprouts" halfway though, like your first pictures above. it's not sprouting polyps at all now?

 

[eperez25]

Very rarely now. It may sprout about half of them at a time on each cup. I can tell you that I have been out on business pretty consistently these days and have not observed it closely.

I do know that it has molted twice since I posted in early July. It did look promising for a few days when the bigger cup looked huge and thin. They are both pretty bent downward and look wrinkled these days.

I change my carbon about every 2-3 weeks. I have started feeding some higher-end food to see if that helps, but I have not noticed a considerable change for the better. I have patience which is good, but I get depressed when I look at it nowadays.

 

[tinyreef]

hmm, the wrinkled comment is not one i like to hear. the skin should almost always be smooth/tight. taut/wrinkled is not a good sign (obviously).

you might want to take it out and look it over. try a clear glass bowl/container (sacrificing this though, as i wouldn't recommend using it for food afterwards) filled with tank water. this way you can look "underneath" while limiting it being upset. also, a coral appears different when it's relaxed versus irritated (shrunk up).

look for gaps and unusual amounts of debris or "dust".

i'd up the carbon change to weekly until you figure out what's going on. it can be an incremental thing with the chemical "pollution" form the sarco. but you usually would notice other corals reacting if it was "farting" more than usual.

 

[eperez25]

Alright...I have positive news. When I got home yesterday, I noticed that gravity is a very pwerful thing and the spilt was almost done. There was about a 1/2" portion still attached at the base. I closed my eyes, couted to ten, and then cut the remainging portion off. I placed the second cup a bit lower in the tank and far away from any other coral.

This morning, both cups seem to be on the mend and have begun to sprout their polyps. They are still not all the way out yet, but that is something I haven't seen in about 3 weeks. As an added bonus, my Xenia seems to be much happer without the lower cup right next to it.

I can't thank you enough for all your help with this. I will try to post some updated pics later this week.

Elio

 

[tinyreef]

i'm glad it's doing better. maybe the stress of splitting was bothering it like you suggested. reproduction can be taxing in any species.

i'd still up the carbon though. the xenia reaction could just be the light/shading but it could also be coral farts.