sponge for angelfish

[LukFox]

"The Commonness field refers to the percentage of <b>specimens containing the food item</b>, as percentage and as choice, i.e., rare (1-5%); common (6-20%); very common (21-50%); dominant (>50%)."

http://www.fishbase.org/manual/english/fishbasethe_food_items_table.htm


Furthermore, you aren't even speculating. You're just saying the answer MUST be sponges and you saw yours eat part of a worm in a captive setting.

 

[glextank]

I just read that they have developed and are releasing a new food called angelixir, that is supposed to closely replicate the angels diet in the wild. I was going to get some for my multicolor angel, but she died yesterday while in quarantine.

 

[TripleT]

can anyone tell me what sponge is the best or that Dwarf angels would love. I know there are many kinds but im trying to pinpoint a certain kind that i can buy live and keep in my tank for my deepwater dwarf angels to pick on. Please post links to the actual sponges that i can order or info on the ones they eat as i know there are some live sponges that the angels wont even touch. Is there any company that make a Frozen food that is 100% sponge? I have the Sanfransisco bay brand angel and butterfly fish frozen food that contains sponge but i want a food with "more" sponge as well as live sponges.Thanks!!!

Sponge is the second ingredient in the large Angel formula.

But I don't even see it listed in the pygmy formula:

http://www.oceannutrition.eu/products.aspx?Product=frozen-pygmy-angel-formula

 

[Toddrtrex]

And of course, Lifeline's herbivore mix (green) seems to work well for most angels. Thanks Todd!

I take it you picked some up? Glad you (( or I should say your angels )) are liking it.

 

[twelvejewelz]

"The Commonness field refers to the percentage of <b>specimens containing the food item</b>, as percentage and as choice, i.e., rare (1-5%); common (6-20%); very common (21-50%); dominant (>50%)."

http://www.fishbase.org/manual/english/fishbasethe_food_items_table.htm


Furthermore, you aren't even speculating. You're just saying the answer MUST be sponges and you saw yours eat part of a worm in a captive setting.

what do you mean by that, that im not speculating?that makes no sense? Im not saying anything MUST be anything...Im simply asking what kind/species of sponges are preferred over another type of sponge for marine angelfish... I know first hand that MY Multibar angel does in fact eat sponge and DOES in FACT eat bristle worm because ive seen it with my own eyes.That does not mean that it eats this in the wild though for certain i would need someone to See the fish in the wild eat this or have the gut contents explored. With the links your posting there are no facts. That is "reported" which means someone can speculate what a species eats and "report" it , there is no evidence of Gut contents on any of those pages unless you see it and im just missing it?i do appreciate you checking around though.

 

[WarrenG]

Queen Angels feasting on sponge, Grand Cayman. I watched these two eating for about 10 minutes.

 

[twelvejewelz]

Queen Angels feasting on sponge, Grand Cayman. I watched these two eating for about 10 minutes.

wow thats so amazing!! i envy you!! if you have more pictures of angels while you dive please do post there beautiful

 

[LukFox]

I was trying to point out that the percentages (the level of commonness of the food) is the percentage of specimens it is found in. It isn't the estimated make up of the diet at all. As a commonness percentage, it could be that algae is a small part of the diet, but it was found in many specimens rather than actually dominating the entire diet. I further linked to the ecology report that states they are primarily algae eaters anyway, but that wasn't a surety just from commonness. The way it is written does lead me to believe they cut some fish open for that data, and I don't see why they wouldn't.

I never said they don't eat sponge (they do), or wouldn't eat a worm in captivity. I don't think that sponge is necessarily the secret to these fish, though. And on not speculating, I meant you weren't taking in observations on habitat or anything at all. You seemed to grab onto the idea that they need a certain sponge in the diet (and it does say what kind of sponges they feed on...), and I couldn't really figure out why.

 

[twelvejewelz]

i finally found this thread sorry lol .I understand what your saying 100% and im not trying to argue with you at all im just trying to figure this all out. I kind of just wanted to know what kind of sponges are more appetizing to the dwarf angel. But i am very curious as to why they do not always do well in our home aquariums and usually do not last over 3 months even when they are eating everything under the sun. Im wondering what we are missing.Is it diet related mabe they are not getting something they need or mabe they are getting to much protein , is it that the light on our tanks are to bright?No one knows for sure and id really like to find this out. As we all know there are new findings and innovations in this hobby every day and the collectors will continue to take these fish out of the ocean even though probably 90% dont make it past a few months( dont know the % for sure but i would assume its a high rate) so i think its our duty as the hobbyists to figure out how we can make them live as long and as comfortable as possible. The multibar angel is my favorite marine fish alive and as my pair are doing really well i havnt had them long enough to really know if theyll make it or not only time will tell. Im doing everything i can though to make them comfortable and this is why i even started the thread, to add anything i can for them to pick at and eat like they would in their natural habitat. But i wasnt really saying that the sponge is "all" they need to live but i was simply just trying to figure out the best or most appetizing sponge they would enjoy you know?
I dont fully understand some parts of those links you sent to me. Are they talking about dwarf angels in general or the exact species? Im just not sure they have really been observed enough in the wild for people to know that much about them IMHO. Im sure they did cut the fish open and check the gut contents though that wouldnt be to hard . In your opinion what do YOU think these fish are missing or getting to much of or why do YOU think they dont fair well? These fish arnt a fully deep water species either though as they have been seen and collected in as little as 20 feet in the wild. Thanks though for the info

I was trying to point out that the percentages (the level of commonness of the food) is the percentage of specimens it is found in. It isn't the estimated make up of the diet at all. As a commonness percentage, it could be that algae is a small part of the diet, but it was found in many specimens rather than actually dominating the entire diet. I further linked to the ecology report that states they are primarily algae eaters anyway, but that wasn't a surety just from commonness. The way it is written does lead me to believe they cut some fish open for that data, and I don't see why they wouldn't.

I never said they don't eat sponge (they do), or wouldn't eat a worm in captivity. I don't think that sponge is necessarily the secret to these fish, though. And on not speculating, I meant you weren't taking in observations on habitat or anything at all. You seemed to grab onto the idea that they need a certain sponge in the diet (and it does say what kind of sponges they feed on...), and I couldn't really figure out why.

 

[Sheol]

Yes, my Bicolor loves the pineapple sponges, but I can find a few she's missed. Fortunately for me, she & the Onespot Foxface love algae. ALL KINDS. If I scrape the glass ( at least twice a week!) they go into a feeding frenzy. All the nuisance crud that grew after my heater crashed my reef in January they ate. Tank looks pretty good!
I do keep a close eye out for coral molesting/picking/eating though.

Matthew

 

[bryan007]

I think the point that Twelve is trying to make is that there MAY be something missing in their diet which contributes to an early death. However there are just some fish that will not survive in captivity period. It is diet related, water conditions, lighting for those collected at lower depths or some other unknown factor who knows at this point. After almost 30 years in the hobby I DO know that quality of the environment they live in along with food is without question key factors in keeping any animal alive. As previously posted the pictures of the Queens eating sponge we do know that this particular specie of angel derives a majority of it's food from sponges. It is a shallow water fish and easily observed.

 

[LukFox]

i finally found this thread sorry lol .I understand what your saying 100% and im not trying to argue with you at all im just trying to figure this all out. I kind of just wanted to know what kind of sponges are more appetizing to the dwarf angel. But i am very curious as to why they do not always do well in our home aquariums and usually do not last over 3 months even when they are eating everything under the sun. Im wondering what we are missing.Is it diet related mabe they are not getting something they need or mabe they are getting to much protein , is it that the light on our tanks are to bright?No one knows for sure and id really like to find this out. As we all know there are new findings and innovations in this hobby every day and the collectors will continue to take these fish out of the ocean even though probably 90% dont make it past a few months( dont know the % for sure but i would assume its a high rate) so i think its our duty as the hobbyists to figure out how we can make them live as long and as comfortable as possible. The multibar angel is my favorite marine fish alive and as my pair are doing really well i havnt had them long enough to really know if theyll make it or not only time will tell. Im doing everything i can though to make them comfortable and this is why i even started the thread, to add anything i can for them to pick at and eat like they would in their natural habitat. But i wasnt really saying that the sponge is "all" they need to live but i was simply just trying to figure out the best or most appetizing sponge they would enjoy you know?
I dont fully understand some parts of those links you sent to me. Are they talking about dwarf angels in general or the exact species? Im just not sure they have really been observed enough in the wild for people to know that much about them IMHO. Im sure they did cut the fish open and check the gut contents though that wouldnt be to hard . In your opinion what do YOU think these fish are missing or getting to much of or why do YOU think they dont fair well? These fish arnt a fully deep water species either though as they have been seen and collected in as little as 20 feet in the wild. Thanks though for the info

At only 3 months to go by I just doubt it is diet related. We have fish like moorish idols, rock beauties, and obligatory coral eating butterflies that can last quite a while on an inappropriate diet before dying from malnutrition. Three months simply doesn't seem right to me diet-wise. It sounds more like a collection and acclimation problem. Just because they are eating doesn't mean all is well inside.

I totally understand wanting to provide what is best for the fish, and keep it long term. Sorry if I came off harshly in my posts!

The links are talking about the multibar angel in particular. The articles on the various Centropyge angels all have different papers cited as their source of information, meaning the paper cited for the multibar information should have a specialized section (or whole) focused on that fish. Unfortunately I don't speak German or I'd try hunting down the actual paper. As enough are collected to be quite available in the hobby, scientists shouldn't have too much of a problem observing and studying them to collect this information.

As far as what I think is up, I would probably blame collection and acclimation but obviously I don't know for sure. What would be VERY helpful is if someone had a seemingly thriving multibar die and took it to a vet or university for a necropsy. Even if you don't have someone who specializes in fish nearby, they can still ship it to someone who can. The thing is, this costs money to do usually which can be a turn off. It would provide some insight on the cause of death, though. If you decide to do this (I'm knocking on wood that yours live long, healthy lives!) should something happen to yours, do not freeze the body as the damage from ice crystals could make it inconclusive. Refrigeration for a time is fine.

 

[snorvich]

I take it you picked some up? Glad you (( or I should say your angels )) are liking it.

I picked up both the red and green mixed together and feed the mixture as one of their meals. Since they are not the only fish, I cannot tell who is eating what but the mixture is well received by the angels and all others.

 

[twelvejewelz]

I went to the LFS and bought a few different sponge species and they had some little rocks with different tunicates on them that i picked up as well. The angles havnt showed interest in either yet but only time will tell. The one multibar will only eat Live blackworms and live brine and will not eat anything else yet. Im starting to think these fish may eat more meaty foods in the wild than people think. There are fish and animals that actually need the deeper water pressure to survive and if taken out of the pressure they would perish thats why im wondering if some of these deeper water species may not thrive because of this. Here is something describing that:

Many organisms adapted to deep-water pressure cannot survive in the upper parts of the water column. The pressure difference can be very significant (approximately one atmosphere for each 10 meters of water depth).

"Because light does not penetrate very deep ocean-water, the energy source for deep benthic ecosystems is often organic matter from higher up in the water column which drifts down to the depths. This dead and decaying matter sustains the benthic food chain; most organisms in the benthic zone are scavengers or detritivores."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benthos

It seems to me that the multibar angels may be detrivores and as well as eat alot of meaty items such as pods, worms, and mysis etc. I have witnessed my one of my multibar angels take a bite out of a bristle worm as well and actually eat a piece of it. Considering this one angel will not eat anything but pick at the rocks and eat the live worms and brine it makes me wonder about the diet alittle more.

If you have any lfs's around you there is usually tons of sponges in their frag tanks you could scrape off and seed your tank with. And there are alot of people that have had multi barred angels/ other deep water angels live without supplementing sponges though it is probably needed for a well rounded diet. And i dont think organs just function at certain depths lol more as to when your taking fish from that much pressure to such little pressure its hard on a fish. Some of the really good collectors with time on their hands put fish in containers and raise them to the surface over a couple days. Alot of these dwarf angels are collected in the pacfic islands where people dont have time to raise them over days but rather pin them quick and go get more. These people need to catch as many fish as they can so they can feed their family rather then a hobbyist doing it for fun imo and cyanide is always bad for the fish though i dont think they use it as much anymore

 

[twelvejewelz]

I think the point that Twelve is trying to make is that there MAY be something missing in their diet which contributes to an early death. However there are just some fish that will not survive in captivity period. It is diet related, water conditions, lighting for those collected at lower depths or some other unknown factor who knows at this point. After almost 30 years in the hobby I DO know that quality of the environment they live in along with food is without question key factors in keeping any animal alive. As previously posted the pictures of the Queens eating sponge we do know that this particular specie of angel derives a majority of it's food from sponges. It is a shallow water fish and easily observed.

+1

At only 3 months to go by I just doubt it is diet related. We have fish like moorish idols, rock beauties, and obligatory coral eating butterflies that can last quite a while on an inappropriate diet before dying from malnutrition. Three months simply doesn't seem right to me diet-wise. It sounds more like a collection and acclimation problem. Just because they are eating doesn't mean all is well inside.

I totally understand wanting to provide what is best for the fish, and keep it long term. Sorry if I came off harshly in my posts!

The links are talking about the multibar angel in particular. The articles on the various Centropyge angels all have different papers cited as their source of information, meaning the paper cited for the multibar information should have a specialized section (or whole) focused on that fish. Unfortunately I don't speak German or I'd try hunting down the actual paper. As enough are collected to be quite available in the hobby, scientists shouldn't have too much of a problem observing and studying them to collect this information.

As far as what I think is up, I would probably blame collection and acclimation but obviously I don't know for sure. What would be VERY helpful is if someone had a seemingly thriving multibar die and took it to a vet or university for a necropsy. Even if you don't have someone who specializes in fish nearby, they can still ship it to someone who can. The thing is, this costs money to do usually which can be a turn off. It would provide some insight on the cause of death, though. If you decide to do this (I'm knocking on wood that yours live long, healthy lives!) should something happen to yours, do not freeze the body as the damage from ice crystals could make it inconclusive. Refrigeration for a time is fine.

Its ok no need to apologize it was just a misunderstanding .Ive read countless things on the multibar angels and it seems people dont know to much lol . I use google translate and read japanese and german writings and everything seems to be speulation on alot of aspects of these fishes diets and even their living debth. We all know collectors wont stop collecting any fish that sell weather they do well or no so its up to us to make sure and figure out how to care for them and make them live happy lives. I still see people having sandsifting stars in 10 gallon tanks 0.o and i still see these purple sea slugs ( i think they are Hypselodoris bullocki nudibranchs) being sold which die in a few days of buying them. The collectors wont stop collecting so its in our best interests to help them survive and either way im interested in the multibar as its my favorite marine fish and id love to know more about it and its habbits in the wild. I know RCT has actually bred them and the offspring wernt shy at all and accepted all prepared foods. I think RCT should really get back on their game because they can save alot of fishes lives and help produce hardier fish and leave others in the oceans.Check down alittle there is their info on the multibars here:
http://www.rcthawaii.com/angel/6.htm