Spots appearing 2 weeks into Cupramine

[tapio]

I am treating a Yellow Tang in a 20 gal HT with a few other fish (dwarf angels, blenny, G. watanabei). All fish were initially free of symptoms and eating well. After starting Cupramine at 0.25 mg/l they had less apetite but continue to eat enough for now. About 10 days into treatment the YT more or less stopped eating and showed a good amount of white spots at day 15. The spots remain but it has started to eat some nori type seaweed. It is now 3 weeks into Cupramine and the spots remain on the YT, I see no spots on the other fish.

I increased the dose to 0.4 mg/l after the spots showed up thinking that maybe the initial 0.25 mg/l was not enough although it should have been.

All fish were dipped in fresh water for a few min before adding them into the HT.

I would have expected the spots to disappear or at least decrease at this point. Could the fish suffer from something that is not responding to copper? Was the initial 0.25 mg/l not enough?

 

[b0bab0ey]

Was the initial 0.25 mg/l not enough?

From what I've read, no.

Cupramine's website says that 0.2 mg/L is the "minimal therapeutic dose". However, time and time again I've seen 0.35 mg/L quoted by experienced hobbyists as the minimum when treating for Crypto/Velvet. If I were you I would reset the clock to when you achieved 0.4 mg/L and hold it there for one solid month. After that, you should be good to go.

 

[caribfan]

I've used Cupramine a number of times, and have had success against C. Irritans every time. When you say that you increased the dose to 0.4 mg/l, I am assuming you verified this by test, and not just by the dosage you added. Is this correct?

I have spoken with the folks at Seachem several times and they have always been very helpful. I would take your dosage to 0.5 mg/l, as is recommended by Seachem and start the effective treatment period from the first day that concentration of cupramine is reached.

You are correct, the spots should start to disappear as the treatment goes on, so I am concerned that your effective dose is less than it should be.

Do you have a solids diagnosis on the YT. Is it possible that it is something other than a parasite, possibly lympho? Pictures might be helpful.

I would verify the dose and also what you are treating. Post a pic, i'm happy to take a look.

 

[SomeDude12]

I continuously run Seachem's Cupramine in a 40 Breeder, which is my QT. The .25 mg/l is the dosage that is intended to begin. The ideal is twice that. I maintain what is suggested by Seachem. I've even read of instances of even shark's having no issues with this dosage of Cupramine. It's definitely easier on the inhabitants than other forms of copper treatments.

I suggest, continuing treatment a minimum of 30 days after the last visible cyst is gone.

 

[caribfan]

SomeDude12, That is a great point about the visible cycst being gone. C. Irritans is such a tricky parasite and definitely has an ability to cycle up, so to speak.

Tapio, how is your YT?

 

[tapio]

My dosing is simply based on exact dosing of the water, what goes in and out. HT contains only PVC pipe and nothing else. Vacuumed twice a week off uneaten food.

YT today has still white spots, eats somewhat and swimming fine. I am hoping for some improvement. All other fish show no sign of disease.

As for, correctly IDing disease. Not sure of course but I am sure it is not lymphocystis.

 

[caribfan]

I would get a copper test kit and be sure what concentration you have in your HT. I just recently ended up adding more cupramine than what was recommended for the volume of tank that I have to achieve the 0.5 mg/l.

I hate to ask this because it will sound insulting, but you have pulled all activated carbon out of your system right?

I was helping a friend with his lawnmower once and after an hour of messing with it, I asked him if it had gas. 30 second later, we had it working. Hope you don't take offense to me asking.

 

[suta4242]

My bet is your copper concentration has dropped below the therapeutic level.

IME you really need to test daily, even in a bare bottom QT with just pvc pipes and a canister filter with wool. You also need to use the manufacturers test kit or Salifert; others can give wrong readings.

FWIW, a sustained low dose of copper is especially bad as the fish can acquire some immunity. This has consequences once the fish reaches the DT.


HTH and good luck! :wavehand:

 

[caribfan]

I agree with Suta4242 on the test kits. I had used the API copper kit in the past, and have recently compared to the Seachem kit and found there to be a difference. I trust the Seachem kit since they make the medication.

Out of curiosity, what are the consequence of a fish acquiring an immunity to copper?

 

[tapio]

I have used Cupramine successfully in the past, even without testing the level. I had usually done a 50 % water change weekly and add the appropriate amount of Cupramine back based on the water volume I removed.

Since the YT is not responding to treatment now, the Cupramine level must be off or it has gone bad. What am I doing different, well I added a small protein skimmer to the HT tank, Hydor Slimskim Nano in hopes to not having to change as much water during the treatment. Although the skimmer is not big, it skims actually out a lot of stuff and I must suspect Cupramine too.

I have ordered a test kit, taken out the skimmer, changed to 100% new water and added 0.5 mg/l of Cupramine. Interestingly the YT had no visible spots this morning. No carbon of course.

I added the skimmer because Seachem says that should be fine. In other statements they say NOT to use skimmers. They should fix that contradiction. Thanks for all reply's, it made me think of what might potentially lower the Cupramine level.

 

[caribfan]

Thanks for updating us, I'm not always good at that. Glad to hear the tang is doing better. I would have to guess it's the skimmer, but if seachem said it should be ok, that is confusing. Hope it works out and you wipe out that ich.

 

[snorvich]

My bet is your copper concentration has dropped below the therapeutic level.

IME you really need to test daily, even in a bare bottom QT with just pvc pipes and a canister filter with wool. You also need to use the manufacturers test kit or Salifert; others can give wrong readings.

FWIW, a sustained low dose of copper is especially bad as the fish can acquire some immunity. This has consequences once the fish reaches the DT.


HTH and good luck! :wavehand:

I agree.