Stainless steel float switches?

[Fish Keeper82]

Any one use stainless steel float switches? I've had the regular PVC type fail twice on me now and im thinking about going to stainless steel ones.
My concern is I've seen lower quality stainless rust a bit an not sure how well they will hold up.

 

[jduck]

I replace my pvc ones yearly. Anything that is vital I use double switches.

 

[mcgyvr]

A little rust won't hurt... (GFO is rust)
But yes you can get stainless ones..
However the internals are more than likely the same so depending on why your first failed it could happen again even with stainless bodies..

 

[Fish Keeper82]

A little rust won't hurt... (GFO is rust)
But yes you can get stainless ones..
However the internals are more than likely the same so depending on why your first failed it could happen again even with stainless bodies..

It had been working great for a year and a half.
I have 3 floats a sump high alarm, sump low alarm and ATO level. I figure the 24/7 constant changing of state of the ATO switch is wearing it down prematurely. I have added a "Defer 000:20 Then On" command thru the APEX and it won't turn on any more because even in the full down (closed) position it is still changing states and wont hold closed for the 20 seconds to start. I can also see it change state in Fusion as its refreshing the screen.
That's how I found it, it was turning off and on in seconds during the ATO allotted fill time so I increased the "Defer 000:30 Then OFF" to a minute thinking it was just dropping level and retriggering a start. That added an extra gallon of top off thought the day that triggered my sump high alarm.
Looks like sticking with the plastic type and just changing them out on a maintenance cycle is the easiest way to go. Thanks all for the input.

 

[mcgyvr]

Yes.. contact "bounce"/frequent triggering in reed switches,etc.. can lead to contact failures/contact degradation..

 

[uncleof6]

The latching circuit is intended to reduce the wear and tear on switches. It does so very effectively, and this is why it is the most reliable type of motor control. In one way or another, a latching circuit is involved in all fluid/motor control systems I have come across. If the replacement of float switches is really frustrating, then maybe the design of the system needs to be altered, or go to a mechanical system. If you stay with an electrical system, you need to use a mechanical failsafe... not more of the same.

Unless it is of an exotic rather expensive alloy, Stainless Steel is not reef safe, or marine system safe by any stretch of the imagination. Affordable float switches will not consist of such materials. If the float was made of graphite, gold, platinum or titanium, this would not be a concern.

 

[Fish Keeper82]

The latching circuit is intended to reduce the wear and tear on switches. It does so very effectively, and this is why it is the most reliable type of motor control. In one way or another, a latching circuit is involved in all fluid/motor control systems I have come across. If the replacement of float switches is really frustrating, then maybe the design of the system needs to be altered, or go to a mechanical system. If you stay with an electrical system, you need to use a mechanical failsafe... not more of the same.

Unless it is of an exotic rather expensive alloy, Stainless Steel is not reef safe, or marine system safe by any stretch of the imagination. Affordable float switches will not consist of such materials. If the float was made of graphite, gold, platinum or titanium, this would not be a concern.

Agreed, but this switch is not in a typical start/stop motor control circuit where the start float carries the initial load of the motor starter coil or relay while the latching circuit holds itself in. Its a simple input signal to the APEX controller under no load.
The constant changing of state of the float in my installation is not under load.
In any case this time it turned out not to be the float switch at all but the connection to the APEX controller. After changing the floats (I changed them even though they ohmed good since they were old) I now had bad states on all 3 new floats after reconnecting the 8 pin connector. I have the NEW APEX and I have to use too much force to get the 8 pin breakout box cable to make contact. So much in fact I'm afraid I'm going to break the connector. I had problems getting the breakout box to communicate when initially set it up as well but it had been working fine since. Its an easy smooth connection but it seems not to seat all the way without more force. I'm going to speak to some one from Neptune about it tomorrow. I got it to work and retested all alarms but this is going to be an issue for me again and Neptune needs to know about it.
I'm going to stay away from the stainless and just replace the PVC ones on a schedule.

Thanks again everyone for the replies.

 

[uncleof6]

Agreed, but this switch is not in a typical star/stop motor control circuit where the start float carries the initial load of the motor starter coil or relay while the latching circuit holds itself in. Its a simple input signal to the APEX controller under no load.
The constant changing of state of the float in my installation is not under load.
In any case this time it turned out not to be the float switch at all but the connection to the APEX controller. After changing the floats (I changed them even though they ohmed good since they were old) I now had bad states on all 3 new floats after reconnecting the 8 pin connector. I have the NEW APEX and I have to use too much force to get the 8 pin breakout box cable to make contact. So much in fact I'm afraid I'm going to break the connector. I had problems getting the breakout box to communicate when initially set it up as well but it had been working fine since. Its an easy smooth connection but it seems not to seat all the way without more force. I'm going to speak to some one from Neptune about it tomorrow. I got it to work and retested all alarms but this is going to be an issue for me again and Neptune needs to know about it.
I'm going to stay away from the stainless and just replace the PVC ones on a schedule.

Thanks again everyone for the replies.

Well the problem I was addressing is not "load." It is strictly mechanical. Mechanically overstressing the contacts due to the "constant changing of state of the float switches." A latching circuit helps with this problem. Apparently, the Apex controller does not address this issue (weak link in the chain) and provides alarms "bells and whistles" instead of reliablility, with a sound failsafe. It is what it is, just sayin...

Good decision on the stainless steel, and GFO shouldnʻt be in the system either, but that is an entirely different topic.

 

[NubbsJRN]

Uncleof6, I am confused on how a latching circut will help a float switch prevent failure. Could you please explain more?

If you were saying it would protect the controller (Apex) I get that.

Thanks!


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[LXXero]

i have optical float switches on my apex, they can't fail nearly as easily as mechanical ones. i use a custom breakout box to power them and convert them into something that the apex breakout cable will work with. I use magnetic float switches to back up the optical ones as well, so it's redundant....

I don't think a latching circuit is necessary for connecting to the apex via a breakout box. it doesn't rely on any current through the switch like you say, it's detecting an open/closed circuit, probably via resistance. it's basically like an alarm system contact, you can even use the same type of reed switches and what not, like I did on my stand door to turn on my stand light, i used leftover reed switches from my alarm system for that.

 

[uncleof6]

Uncleof6, I am confused on how a latching circut will help a float switch prevent failure. Could you please explain more?

If you were saying it would protect the controller (Apex) I get that.

Thanks!


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

The "latch" is controlled by two float switches, thus cutting the number of cycles in half, or more. Low level on, latches... high level unlatches the ciruit e.g. cuts the power to a relay coil. Again not dealing with load per se, although your float switch is under load when the contacts are closed. (current flows even at 0V; ~12V is what they are designed to handle, 120VAC is what burns up the contacts.)

This is rather than having a single float that can "work" the contacts with a small change in water level.

Personally, I find using an Appex to control a simple system such as an ATO, a bit much; and moreso because it does not incorporate any sort of failsafe, using a single control signal. Using a latching circuit would make your setup a little more complex, but still would not provide a failsafe. It is simply to save wear and tear on the float switch. E.G. more reliable.

Rather than carry 120VAC, the "120VAC" line would carry your signal.

 

[Fish Keeper82]

The "latch" is controlled by two float switches, thus cutting the number of cycles in half, or more. Low level on, latches... high level unlatches the ciruit e.g. cuts the power to a relay coil. Again not dealing with load per se, although your float switch is under load when the contacts are closed. (current flows even at 0V; ~12V is what they are designed to handle, 120VAC is what burns up the contacts.)

This is rather than having a single float that can "work" the contacts with a small change in water level.

Personally, I find using an Appex to control a simple system such as an ATO, a bit much; and moreso because it does not incorporate any sort of failsafe, using a single control signal. Using a latching circuit would make your setup a little more complex, but still would not provide a failsafe. It is simply to save wear and tear on the float switch. E.G. more reliable.

Rather than carry 120VAC, the "120VAC" line would carry your signal.

The circuit through the Apex is no different only with less components.Your stop float acts the same as my stop float does no more no less. The wear on that reed bounce would be the exact same .... well in actually it would wear less controlled thru the Apex since it would never be under any coil break load. The start signal is through a scheduled timer not the float itself its mearly a stop float and nothing more. It has the same time to lower to the same level as would in conventional 3 wire control. That is of course as long as there is several hours between starts(4 hrs is what APEX examples show but I use 6 hrs).
The Apex circuit has plenty of fail safe, for instant setting up a max run time of the ATO pump. Then there are the alarms to your phone .... I have a 3 min run alarm and a 5 min run alarm so I can know whenever it runs more than it should and can remotely shut off if need be.
I think both systems work fine Apex just gives you more options and versatility. It's those fail safe that only dumped an extra gallon of water in my 140 gal system that had no impact and I was the cause of it by trying to troubleshoot remotely.
If it would have been a 3 wire latching circuit in which a stop float switch failed in the closed position.....
1. I would not have known about it until I visually saw it and
2. It would have dumped all the ATO and ran the pump dry until you noticed it unless you added a timing relay to your schematic to open the circuit prevent this. In which case you've just created my Apex circuit hardwired with more components.
Seems like you were under the impression it was a 2 wire jog circuit.

 

[Fish Keeper82]

Nice diagram by the way. Nice to see someone take the time to clarify it visually for anyone having trouble understanding.

 

[uncleof6]

Nice diagram by the way. Nice to see someone take the time to clarify it visually for anyone having trouble understanding.

I visualize this as a float switch moves opening/closing a circuit, and it does it too often. Nothing more, nothing less. And I am only going by what you described. I would not normally get involved in a thread concerning an Apex controller, however float switch failure is a common problem, and the latching circuit is a solution to that specific problem.

But just for grins, whatcha gunna do if the Apex takes a dump? The connector issue would be enough for me to chuck it in a dumpster... incidentally I do use computer controls on a couple of the very large systems (proprietary.)

 

[Fish Keeper82]

I visualize this as a float switch moves opening/closing a circuit, and it does it too often. Nothing more, nothing less. And I am only going by what you described. I would not normally get involved in a thread concerning an Apex controller, however float switch failure is a common problem, and the latching circuit is a solution to that specific problem.

But just for grins, whatcha gunna do if the Apex takes a dump? The connector issue would be enough for me to chuck it in a dumpster... incidentally I do use computer controls on a couple of the very large systems (proprietary.)

If the energy bars 832 loses communication to the Apex base unit they are individually set to be either on or off. ATO's plug would be set off of course. If the energy bars 832 takes a dump as well that's no different than a standard plug strip taking a dump. I have seen my fair share of those fail. I did leave my old 12 duplex receptacles under my stand in weather proof boxes just in case it ever did take a dump.
What if circuit breaker trips? Don't matter how your connected your dead in the water until you reset it. Even Iif you have multiple brach circuits they could all trip at the same time or maybe just the building main trip. We can what if it the situation all day.

I think we are in agreement a latching circuit is best for float circuits. If i did not have the Apex it still would be installed that way( the first float I had to replace years ago was installed this way) I just trust the Apex to do the control and you do not. No worries I'm not selling anything.