Starting a new tank. Need advice. approx. 380g display with 500g filtration... 880g

[ReefingBuddha]

Hi,

My name is Tom. I have been keeping reef tanks for about a year now. I started with a 55 and then quickly upgrade to a 120. I also take care of my girlfriends 14g Biocube.

Now, I am buying a house and want to dedicate a room to equipment and put in a serious tank. The tank will be SPS dominated with some LPS, soft corals, and clams. I also plan to keep a large stock of fish and inverts. I am aiming for a cannon design in a tank with the following dimesions (if possible) 48" x 72" x 30" whic is approximately 380g of display area. I would like a lot of open sand bed with a actual bed depth of 1"-2". I want to make sure that there is a solid feeling of depth in the space. The idea is that the tank can be view from all four sides. I plan on having a refugium (60g) a frag tank (40g) and a large sump to add tank volume (120g) and a 75 gallon for RO and top off and another 75 gallon for extra water volume and water changes. Furthermore I am looking at a deltec A1003 protein skimmer and a deltec calcium reactor, both oversized to deal with the significant requirements of this aquarium. I also would like to run carbon, when needed, and ROWAphos in fluidized reactors along with a UV sterilizer. Most of the biological filtration will be done with approximately 800 pounds of live rock found both in the display and the sump. I also would like a controller unit to handle and automate all the electronics, timing, dosing, and possibly even water changes.

If you have any comments of things that you think I should consider for this tank please let me know.

Now for the challenging part. I am looking for a way to keep all four sides of the tank free of any plumbing, including overflows if possible. This means that all circulation would have to either go through the bottom or from the top of the tank. I would consider overflows in two of the corners but no more and would like to avoid that as much as possible.

Breakdown:

Here is the flow Idea i have worked out for my tank.
-The red arrows indicate direction A for a period of time and the blue arrows indicate direction B for a period of time on the first closed loop system. In this way I am hoping to create a gyre with a lot of water moving in a circular flow and then reversing that flow. The output will be from 4 x 1 1/4" PVC 45 degree elbows mostly buried in the sand in each corner.
-The tunze's in the middle make sure the corals are getting intense flow and help the circular flow idea along. They will be controlled so they will vary up and down.
-The green dots represent return from the sump which will be approximately 14" from the bottom and will be placed into drilled rock. It will be shooting straight up to create randomn flow which will hopefully effect the entire tank. It will be at least 2" piping.
-The purple dots represent the second closed loop system which will be controlled by a 2-way oceans motions which will switch between the two at regular intervals, hopefully to create more randomn flow once again. They will be at least 1" piping

I am hoping that in this way I can create a LOT of random flow for my SPS corals.

Below is the schematic I have been working on. This is an idea I have kicking around for a while since I don't want anyhting on the 4 view walls and I don't want a center overflow.

Any ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated.

by the way... the large rectangles on each side of the tank are where wall are going to be. This is where I need to incorporate all the overflow and plumbing to keep it out of view. If anyone wants different angles or close up's of certain parts let me know and I can get them.

I thank everyone already for looking and throwing in your 2 cents.

 

[ReefingBuddha]

BTW... the blue closed circuits in the sand will either have to swivel 45 degrees somehow, eventhough i haven't found a solution, or i will have to be double plumbed on a 8-way OM, but I would like to avoid that as much as possible.

Thanks!

 

[ReefingBuddha]

Sorry... forgot to mention that the second closed loop system shots straight up as well but switchs between the left and right side to create some more randomn flow. They will be staggered at 9" and 11" inches respectively. I also thought i might drill a few holes in them to create a little more water movement inside the rock work.

 

[GSMguy]

wow great planing looks like a nice build

 

[mcrist]

I love your design, having all 4 walls viewable without using a central overflow. Nicely done.. What size plumbing are you planning for your closed loops, 2 inches? I would think you will have trouble with that much flow going through an overflow especially ones as small as you’re planning. You might try something like I have in my setup but run it vertically.

You stated that you want the one closed loop returns to rotate; did you look into Ocean Motions Revolutions? I am not sure how good they work but they are larger than I thought.

 

[jnarowe]

interesting concept. I agree with the statement regarding the overflows. That will be a problem area. Unless I am misunderstanding the design, you are trying to push the return flow through very small overflows, and in fact I would suggest not using them at all if you are set on this kind of installation.

I don't like to see overflows inside my tank and that is why I am a huge fan of external overflows. But, that does obviously impede the view on at least one side of the tank. IMO, you can't keep a reef type setup with such small overflows and take advantage of surface skimming. If you don't buy into surface skimming, you could set it up differently. I have virtually the entire length of my 8' long tank as an external overflow with removable teeth. My overflow box is external and very shallow to provide direct flow into my skimmer.

If those are walls off the two corners, you may be able to engineer more overflow area by making the transition into the "wall" open and have say two or three feet of teeth beyond the view of the tank. This would entail having it accessable though, which means at the least open to viewing or with a hatch so you can get to it. I hope I wrote that well enough for you to get what I mean!

 

[ReefingBuddha]

Thanks for the advice.

I was wondering about the overflow ability but I really really want to keep it as clean as possible. without anything interfering with the view ability.I want to check out how your overflow is done but I can't seem to find a good picture. Please post one or let me know where I can see it if you get a chance.

I have been thinking about the revolutions since I'm planning on using some OM projects anyways. I want to talk to the rep over there for some suggestion.

Thanks!

 

[mcrist]

Here is a photo of how my closed loop gets feed.

 

[jnarowe]

If you click on the red house, you will find various shots of it on the construction and start up pages. I really don't think that will work for what you want to do. You could do something like what mcrist has for his closed loop, instead of an overflow. My only caution would be that hiding it and keeping it accessable are two elements that compete with each other.

My other idea would work better by effectively extending the surface area of the tank to provide overflows. I am not good with making diagrams so it is tough for me to get this point across.

Let's say you are looking down from above the tank, and the area you have for overflow is actually open to the space where the wall is. I am just talking about no curved baffle, no bulkheads, but actually open to an overflow area that is say 6" deep and runs along the wall space for a couple feet. Inside or outside of that you would have your overflow teeth going to the sump. So theoretically you could get 4 - 6 feet of teeth all skimming the surface but out of sight. The only trick would be to get the surface of the display to circulate in a circular pattern that feeds into the overflows.

Do you get the idea?

 

[ReefingBuddha]

is this about what you meant?

 

[ReefingBuddha]

I figure the dual intakes for the closed cuirit right below the overflow area will draw more water towards the intake.

 

[ReefingBuddha]

mcrist - you are right... its not necessary that it is in the overflow anyways so I'm going to place it just below. I'm considering 2 x 1 1/2" intakes to the 2" input for the closed cuircut loop so that there is less resistance and it will draw a wider area of water way. Let me know what you think.

 

[ReefingBuddha]

This is an updated version of the two closed cuircut loops intakes (2x each). I still don't know if i have enough overflow area to property skim the water. If anyone else has any ideas, let me know.

 

[jnarowe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9769012#post9769012 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thirschmann
is this about what you meant?

yes except I would make them longer. and I guess sloping them might keep detritus from collecting in it.

 

[ReefingBuddha]

interesting idea... the only concern I have is that I won't be able to get enough water flow through that area to make it viable. What I mean is that I am a conerned it will just turn into dead water. Maybe this design would work a little better because the second intake for the closed loop would draw more water into the overflow area, theoretically inceasing circulation. Maybe it would work even better if both CL intakes were up there.

Let me know what you think.

Thank you!

 

[DrBDC]

So your overflow entry is 9" across? You won't get very many gph through that short of an overflow opening. Very very little. A closed loop will be sucking air as the overflow empties out and the main return pump will need to be on the smaller side even if it's the only thing in there.

 

[ReefingBuddha]

DrBDC
That is the concern I had. The open is 8 1/2 inches wide and 12 inches deep, this is open water to the tank. The box outside of this box (9" x 15") would serve as the overflow box that would feed the drain area.

I don't forsee a problem with the closed loop being there because the tank will "hopefully" never drain down that far.

As mentioned before. This is just an idea that someone else suggested and I'm open to any recomendations. I would appreciate any help that I can possible get with this DrBDC and any design ideas you have would be greatly appreciated. The system I am proposing does face a lot of challenges but I believe they can be overcome.

BTW: I would ideally like a whole side of the tank dedicated to overflow but that is not a possibility with the constraints I have sent for myself. Let me know if you have any ideas.

 

[mcrist]

I agree that with the size overflow you are planning that you cannot have any part of the closed loop attached to the overflow. Having a small overflow is not necessary bad since it is generally accepted that you don’t want a lot of flow going through your sump. The protein skimmer your are planning for only needs 800 gph and if you split that between to overflows you will easily be able to have two small overflows. Are you are planning to have your protein skimmer attached by gravity feed?

Yes I believe that should work for the closed loop feed. Try to make them as far apart as you can so you don’t have too strong of a suction in those areas. I know you don’t have the space to do what I have in my setup but mine are at least two feet apart and connected with perforated tubing. There is such a small amount of suction that small pieces of food that float by rarely get sucked in.

 

[DrBDC]

If it doesn't have to go over teeth to get in there, then the intake for the closed loop shouldn't have any problem. I guess I didn't read thoroughly enough.

Now that you've explained that to me I can also see that the main overflow drain is in a separate box behind that. It could be that with the one closed loop pulling from right in front of it, you don't get a good upper layer of proteins and scum coming off the water surface. But,,,I'm not so sure that with the turnover that tanks have now as compared to the 90's that the upper layer is that much more protein rich than any other water in the tank. I know my surface has a lot of waves a ripples and isn't a stagnant surface like it used to be back when 4 mj1200's was thought to be a LOT of flow! :lol:

 

[jnarowe]

yeah, you can't put a closed loop intake inside the overflow area. It will just create a vortex and a loud sucking noise. My whole point about the extension is to allow the water to run off a longer set of teeth. I don't think the opening size will restrict flow in the sense that if you drive the return with a Hammerhead and get 4200gph after head loss, it will flow through those openings just fine, but at an elevated height. Having 2.5 feet of teeth will then allow the water to escape with little resistance. I run mine with a Hammerhead and have about 6 feet net of teeth, and that is less than half of the teeth capacity.

The net opening you have drawn is actually 6-5/16". So one thought is to make the bottom of the overflow area an incline. That would allow ore flow into the box and keep detritus from settling in the box. So instead of being 5-1/4" high at the tank, it could be say 10" high.