Starting new Reef build. Help plz

[Doc_Sid]

Hey guys

I've been planning on starting a marine tank since a long time. I finally decided to take the plunge and started the build.
Need a little help as I'm going all DYI with the help of a few friends

Rough design

The main display tank 140 gallons- 36L x 30W x 30H
The refugium tank 70 gallons- 23L x 36W x 20H
The sump will be under the main tank inside the stand - 60 gallons- 29L x 27W x 18H
The tank will be in my bedroom which is air conditioned and keeping the tank cool will be easier.

The size of the tank is limited due to the space available. The tank is going to be placed towards the right corner of the room. There is a cement slab counter to its right. So I've decided to use this space to add another tank which would increase my water volume, serve as my refugium and can be converted to a display tank eventually.



The overflow will be Herbie style. 2 x 1.5" drains(both with gate valves and will be adjusted to run at equal full siphon flow) going from the main tank to the fuge tank and 2 x 1.5" drains(with gate valves) from the fuge to the sump and a 1" return pipe from the sump to the main tank. Another 1.5" pipe from the main tank will drain into the sump in case of an emergency. There will be a 1" drain near the bottom of the main tank to remove water during water changes etc.

I'm planning to go skimmerless. I'll have low fish stocking. I'm more interested in keeping corals than fish anyway [emoji1]

The refugium tank will have live sand/rock with macroalgae. The sump will also have a big refugium chamber. Will use an ATS too somewhere. May use a skimmer in the sump later if I need it

I got the stand installed in place. Will get the electric and carpentry work done soon.

A few questions
1. What should the water level be below the top edge of the tank? I'm thinking of leaving 1.5" from the top to the level of the overflow chamber.
2. Where should I drill the overflow holes. I'm thinking 6" from the top edge.. so 4.5" below the water surface. Is this enough to maintain a full siphon in 2 of the drains or should I go lower. 3 holes with 2" between them and the edge good enough?

3. Turnover rate? Is 3 times the turnover enough? Should I calculate for the entire system volume?

4. Should I use an external or submersed return pump? Will using an external pump keep the tank considerably cooler?

5. Should I use a deep sand bed in the refugium tank or in the sump refugium? How deep?

I'll post updates soon
Any suggestions/opinions are welcome

 

[Dkuhlmann]

This should help you with any information you are looking for.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

 

[Harse Designs]

following your build thread.
10 times or more turn over especially without a skimmer.
i would go with internal, if you have a chiller or temp control room ac mini split etc
sand bed 3 to 6 inch to help with filter

 

[thegrun]

Here are a few suggestions:
While the 30" tall dimension of your tank may look good, working on a tank over 24" high is going to require you to submerge your shoulder completely in the tank water. Unless you absolutely have your heart set on the 30" height or have already purchased the tank, I would strongly recommend the 24" height.
I would run both the secondary and the emergency drains from the DT both directly down to your sump and only run the primary drain to the refugium, I know it's not that big of a deal but to my thinking it is a little safer that way, but do run a second emergency drain from the refugium to the sump.
I would not add a drain to the display tank, it's just something that can go terribly wrong, instead tee off your return line with a valve and use that to drain the system for water changes.
I know you intend to go skimmerless, but still size the first chamber to be large enough to handle an appropriately sized skimmer in case you change your mind. Corals like oxygenated water as much as fish and some corals require or at least do better when well fed, which equates to proteins that need to be removed.
Is your tank rimless? If so 1-1/2 to 1-1/4 inches is a good water level. If it is eurobraced I like to have the water at about 1/2" below the brace.
I prefer at least 5 times the DT volume through the sump, although I've seen a few very nice tanks with lower flow rates.
An external pump will run cooler, although some external pumps transfer almost as much heat as submerged pumps. Either way be sure to purchase a quality pump, there are big differences in efficiency which translates to less heat transferred, plus the return pump is the heart of your system, a bad place to try and save a few dollars.
If your tank is truly a low nutrient tank ,I don't see a big need for a deep sand bed, but if you do decide on one it should be at least 4" deep, but I think a 5" bed is better.
Best of luck and keep us updated!

 

[Doc_Sid]

This should help you with any information you are looking for.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

Thank you. I've already been through most of those threads[emoji6]
I want to make sure I don't run into any problems

following your build thread.
10 times or more turn over especially without a skimmer.
i would go with internal, if you have a chiller or temp control room ac mini split etc
sand bed 3 to 6 inch to help with filter

I was thinking if I could do with 5 times turnover. Will have to see. Might go with 5 inch sand bed and an internal pump. Thank you[emoji4]

Here are a few suggestions:
While the 30" tall dimension of your tank may look good, working on a tank over 24" high is going to require you to submerge your shoulder completely in the tank water. Unless you absolutely have your heart set on the 30" height or have already purchased the tank, I would strongly recommend the 24" height.
I would run both the secondary and the emergency drains from the DT both directly down to your sump and only run the primary drain to the refugium, I know it's not that big of a deal but to my thinking it is a little safer that way, but do run a second emergency drain from the refugium to the sump.
I would not add a drain to the display tank, it's just something that can go terribly wrong, instead tee off your return line with a valve and use that to drain the system for water changes.
I know you intend to go skimmerless, but still size the first chamber to be large enough to handle an appropriately sized skimmer in case you change your mind. Corals like oxygenated water as much as fish and some corals require or at least do better when well fed, which equates to proteins that need to be removed.
Is your tank rimless? If so 1-1/2 to 1-1/4 inches is a good water level. If it is eurobraced I like to have the water at about 1/2" below the brace.
I prefer at least 5 times the DT volume through the sump, although I've seen a few very nice tanks with lower flow rates.
An external pump will run cooler, although some external pumps transfer almost as much heat as submerged pumps. Either way be sure to purchase a quality pump, there are big differences in efficiency which translates to less heat transferred, plus the return pump is the heart of your system, a bad place to try and save a few dollars.
If your tank is truly a low nutrient tank ,I don't see a big need for a deep sand bed, but if you do decide on one it should be at least 4" deep, but I think a 5" bed is better.
Best of luck and keep us updated!

Thank you[emoji4]
Yes I do want a 30" tall. Just want to go as big as i can in the space available. I'm willing to trade off convenience for a better display.

I was thinking the exact same thing with the drains [emoji1]
Run only one drain into the refugium tank, adjusting the flow as needed with a gate valve and running the secondary and back up drains to the sump. I can use one drain from the refugium to the sump in full siphon and use another as an emergency.

Teeing off from the return is safer I guess. I was thinking I could drain a large amount of water from the display if necessary... I guess I won't need to as this isn't a freshwater tank

Will try to make it work without a skimmer. Let's see how it goes

Tank is rimmed but will keep water level 1.5" below to compensate for heavy flow for sps in the future.

I'm thinking if I should go with an external overflow box. Will save space in the display tank.
The glass to the right at 1.5" less in height.. with an overflow chamber running across the full length on the right.... 30" long
I just want to make sure I have the right size overflow box and drilled right.
How deep and wide should it be..
30" x 8"H x 4"W ???

 

[Doc_Sid]

Got CREE LED shipped from topledlight.com [emoji16]

Doing a DYI led build with the help of a friend.
Planning to use 84 led for the build. Might be run at 50% intensity. The plan so far...
7 Cool White XML2 8000K
7 Neutral White XML2 4500K
7 Warm White XML2 3000K
35 Royal Blue XTE 450nm
7 Blue XPE 470nm
7 Cyan 490 nm
7 UV 395nm
7 UV 425 nm

On 6 channels. Still thinking of how to split them into 6

 

[sde1500]

Question, whats the point of a sump if you plan on going skimmerless, and attaching a second tank as a display refugium?

 

[Dkuhlmann]

Question, whats the point of a sump if you plan on going skimmerless, and attaching a second tank as a display refugium?

Increased biofilter from being able to increase your water volume and adding more rock for bio filtration (this allows you to add more fish in your DT) Which gives you greater water stability. Breeding grounds for billions of pods!

 

[CStrickland]

Question, whats the point of a sump if you plan on going skimmerless, and attaching a second tank as a display refugium?

+1 you can hide the return pump easy enough in the fuge, the pods will grow there (if you want a lot of pods for some reason) and there's easier ways to buff your filtration than just adding random 60 gallon tanks to your system and since you say youre not that into fish I doubt that'll be an issue anyway. It'll be a lot easier to balance the drains and flow from your single pump with only 2 tanks

 

[Dkuhlmann]

Question, whats the point of a sump if you plan on going skimmerless, and attaching a second tank as a display refugium?

Why would you want to go skimmerless? I can't fathom not running a skimmer on any saltwater system IMO Hard to believe the crap that comes out of the water from the skimmer. Nasty stuff I know I wouldn't want to be living in it and breathing it in. (insert puke emoticon here) You also don't need the sump etc to run a skimmer they make HOB skimmers. I have on in my system and it works great.

 

[Doc_Sid]

Question, whats the point of a sump if you plan on going skimmerless, and attaching a second tank as a display refugium?

A sump has many other advantages other than hiding equipment... increased water volume, stable parameters, stable water level in the display, more filtration, chamber for a refugium/ frag grow out/ fish acclimatisation/ top off etc etc

I'm adding more water volume in the limited space that I have. This will be a 270 Gallon system holding atleast 180 gallons of water.... More stability, I could add many more fish to the display if I want to and a lot more filtration.

The refugium tank will be used for nutrient export/filtration with macroalgae, a 5"deep sand bed, some rock for now but will hopefully, one day house sea horses/pipefish.
Yes the sump will also have a big refugium chamber so I will have an effective nutrient export.. if I need it

+1 you can hide the return pump easy enough in the fuge, the pods will grow there (if you want a lot of pods for some reason) and there's easier ways to buff your filtration than just adding random 60 gallon tanks to your system and since you say youre not that into fish I doubt that'll be an issue anyway. It'll be a lot easier to balance the drains and flow from your single pump with only 2 tanks

Well... I really want to keep mandarin dragonet/s in my display which is one of the reasons I got into SW. Of course I'll only add them once I'm sure the system is stable.. maybe after 6 months or a year. If I do succeed in keeping them healthy and properly fed, I might try breeding a pair. So I'll need all the pods I can get. I'm familiar with hatching brine shrimp and culturing live worms to feed my FW fish.

The fish stocking will also depend on their compatibility with mandarins.. shouldn't compete by eating pods. That's the reason I'm thinking not to add an orchid dottyback.. which I love.

I'll need help from the forum in stocking[emoji4] but let me get the system setup first.

I'm planning to run just one drain (with a gate valve) from the display to the refugium tank with low flow. The refugium tank will also have an overflow chamber and 2 drains into the sump. So I think I can balance the flow easily.

Why would you want to go skimmerless? I can't fathom not running a skimmer on any saltwater system IMO Hard to believe the crap that comes out of the water from the skimmer. Nasty stuff I know I wouldn't want to be living in it and breathing it in. (insert puke emoticon here) You also don't need the sump etc to run a skimmer they make HOB skimmers. I have on in my system and it works great.

I don't plan on stocking heavily so I don't think I'll need one. I'll try to make do with my 2 refugiums and an ATS if necessary.
The skimmer will also remove the good stuff like pods(fish food)/ coral food / macro algae food. Not running a skimmer will be cheaper.. I can invest in a chiller instead. Less maintenance, less noise etc

There are many threads of skimmerless sps tanks.. nanos and large tanks in RC and other forums.. so I'm hoping I can add mine to the list [emoji4]

 

[RockOn681]

You might run into an issue having that much flow 100% going through your refugium. Might be a lot of tumbling in there if you are growing macro. I would almost consider running your main to the sump and the secondary to the refugium, and maybe tuning it so there is a decent trickle. This is assuming I interpreted your diagram correctly.

 

[figuerres]

the way the drawing shows the tanks and the plumbing I see a possible issue, the more complex any system is the more chance for a failure. most tanks have the sump and fuge below the dt with one gravity drop to move water from the dt to the sump to make that work.in your drawing is the fuge outflow is blocked it will overflow.
I would find a way to make the fuge a part of the sump via a baffle plate and let it be filled from the sump/ as part of the sump box.
that removes a bunch of plumbing issues and keeps it simple.
simple is *ALWAYS* better as it has less ways it can go wrong.

and the 30 inch tall ... I would also say that is not a good idea unless you are willing to never reach the bottom of the tank ..... even a standard 150 at 23 to 25 inches deep can be hard to get to the bottom w/o getting your shirt wet. just keep that in mind.

 

[Doc_Sid]

You might run into an issue having that much flow 100% going through your refugium. Might be a lot of tumbling in there if you are growing macro. I would almost consider running your main to the sump and the secondary to the refugium, and maybe tuning it so there is a decent trickle. This is assuming I interpreted your diagram correctly.

You are right. The plans have changed since the diagram.
The primary drain will run to the sump.
The secondary drain will run to the refugium tank and adjusted as necessary.

And..I've decided to have an external overflow box. 30" across the right side of the tank, 8" tall and 6" wide. 3x 1.5" drill holes for drains and 1x 1" for the return

 

[Doc_Sid]

the way the drawing shows the tanks and the plumbing I see a possible issue, the more complex any system is the more chance for a failure. most tanks have the sump and fuge below the dt with one gravity drop to move water from the dt to the sump to make that work.in your drawing is the fuge outflow is blocked it will overflow.

I would find a way to make the fuge a part of the sump via a baffle plate and let it be filled from the sump/ as part of the sump box.
that removes a bunch of plumbing issues and keeps it simple.
simple is *ALWAYS* better as it has less ways it can go wrong.

and the 30 inch tall ... I would also say that is not a good idea unless you are willing to never reach the bottom of the tank ..... even a standard 150 at 23 to 25 inches deep can be hard to get to the bottom w/o getting your shirt wet. just keep that in mind.

I will update with a drawing of the new plan soon[emoji4] Those problems are addressed.

I have 630 gallon FW planted discus tank thats 42" high (with a 120 gallon sump). So I'm aware of the problems[emoji6]

An old pic before the discus..

 

[Doc_Sid]

My design.

The stand and electrical work is done. Got dry rock, reef crystals salt and aragonite sand. Will start working on the DIY LED build and will get the tank this week.

 

[Doc_Sid]

 

[Doc_Sid]

 

[Doc_Sid]

T off the return with a valve and hose going into the middle compartment of the sump. Will be used for flow in this chamber and for water changes


Plumbing for the ats


Pillar to hold up the return plumbing

 

[Doc_Sid]

Will attach a black acrylic sheet with teething for the overflow.
Rock scaping and sand coming soon