Please understand I am overgeneralizing with what I'm about to say. I'm not trying to offend anyone I'm just giving my own observation. 7 years ago when I got into this hobby the stores that actually carried reef supplies were far and few between. The main store I went to had 2 tanks in the back with a few odds and ends and all the rest was freshwater with a few saltwater FO tanks sprinkled in. I could buy an Acro or stag for about 35-50 bucks and this wasn't a FRAG sometimes they went as high as 60 but those were really nice colonies. Now I find no less than 5 stores or warehouse docks with all kinds of variety within 10 miles of me which is great I guess but the standard price is $45- 80 with frags going for ridicules prices that are almost equal to what small colonies went for. And although I don't like it thats business I can choose to buy or not buy. So what's bother me is this. So called Hobbyists that want to sell there ultra rare BLA DE BLA 1/2 inch frag for 60 bucks or 15 dollars a polyp . And they post crap on Craig's list and other boards with tag lines like " cleaning out my surplus buy my stuff cheap only 3/4 the price of retail . To that I say BOO. I mean hey if your in this to make a BUCK then your not a hobbyist your a business man lets just call it like it is. not so many years ago and I'm sure still people would give away there extra stuff just for the pleasure of getting someone new into the hobby or just to introduce something new to a fellow hobbyist. Heck you didn't even need to know them you just threw up a posting and said.. you want it come and get it. And if you want to leave something in return than do it. If you don't maybe later you will have something to pass on to someone else. I know this still goes on in the local clubs... anyways I dont have an answer to all this just wanted to rant a bit about it. Made me feel better thanks for listening
STATE of The Hobby
- Thread starter ermartin
- Start date
Blazer88
Premium Member
I'm a strong believer in efficient markets and prices always have an equilibrium. Don't trash on the people making money from this hobby as they are obviously fulfilling the demand for corals (or they would never sell and prices would lower until they did). Trash on many fools who are willing to spend $200 a polyp for a zoanthid or something thus making many corals out of reach for "normal" people. I make money with just about every hobby I have which normally goes right back into the hobby. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I absolutely agree with you. My point is that these so called hobbyist are selling at prices the same as the local reef stores. and trying to make you feel like your getting a great deal. because of the prices they are selling for the dealers have no incentive to reduce the price either. And as you said 200 to a dealer is foolish but 175 to a hobbyist is just as bad. As I said my statement was a total over generalization. I would just like the hobby to spread and I think many hobbyist are making it price prohibitive to possible new community member's as much as the dealers are. My point would be I have a tank I love my tank if something grows more than i need 1. I can give it away 2. I can trade it away. 3. I can sell it to a fellow reefer at a reasonable price cause It didn't cost me a thing anyways its just the positive effect of having a stable system. To clarify a bit more I'm not mad that if your in the hobby and you can supplement your addiction by selling your extras. Thats fine. But if your in the hobby to make money (on those 200$ zoo's) then your not a hobbyist you just have a part time job that you like
Blazer88
Premium Member
I think all of this still comes down to the consumer and neither the dealer or hobbiest would be at fault. I personally do not differentiate between spending money at a LFS or with a hobbiest as long as I get whatever it is that I'm looking for. In a perfect world with identical goods, perfect competition would exist and the consumer would get the lower price from either a store of other hobbiest, whichever would be willing to sell for lower. So the differences I see are the goods between the LFS and consumer which determine the prices.
I'm going to try and put this into an example. I have sold plenty of Ricordia frags for "LFS" prices to other people. If the LFS had lower prices for the same coral, they would purchase from them and not through me. If I wanted to make a sale I would be forced to lower my prices. Should I sell it for cheaper just because the LFS would generally sell it for more? I don't think that would make sense by any means. I don't try to "make" anyone fell like they got the deal of the century or anything, they just ended up with the coral they wanted at a price that I was willing to sell. And if people spend too much for corals that are generally available for cheaper elsewhere, well, that's just their own fault I guess.
I'm going to try and put this into an example. I have sold plenty of Ricordia frags for "LFS" prices to other people. If the LFS had lower prices for the same coral, they would purchase from them and not through me. If I wanted to make a sale I would be forced to lower my prices. Should I sell it for cheaper just because the LFS would generally sell it for more? I don't think that would make sense by any means. I don't try to "make" anyone fell like they got the deal of the century or anything, they just ended up with the coral they wanted at a price that I was willing to sell. And if people spend too much for corals that are generally available for cheaper elsewhere, well, that's just their own fault I guess.
i think its a heck of a lot nicer when we can pick up frags from local club members and friends for 10-15$ instead of spending 75-100 on the wild caught stuff mainly available at the store... I think what the author is trying to say is that its going to be harder for the hobby to grow if the starting price of nice corals starts at 100$ as compared to 10$
barbra
Active member
I see your point ermartin. I agree that your complaint is, generally, valid from a philosophical point of view. I think that your desire for others to be more selfless is unrealistically utopian. Years ago we turned a corner in this society and the benefit of the individual now takes precedence over the benefit of the whole. For many people this forum serves as the only assistance they get at all, forget good deals on livestock.
While a lack of funds is a difficult and limiting obstacle to the serious (and seriously poor) reefer, it does have the silver lining of making the hobby out of reach for some people. You seem to be disappointed that the price puts the hobby out of reach to some. That mindset only works if you acccept the premise that anyone who wants to keep a reef tank should be afforded every opportunity to do so. From the point of view of the willdlife involved, that's not a very good deal at all usually.
While a lack of funds is a difficult and limiting obstacle to the serious (and seriously poor) reefer, it does have the silver lining of making the hobby out of reach for some people. You seem to be disappointed that the price puts the hobby out of reach to some. That mindset only works if you acccept the premise that anyone who wants to keep a reef tank should be afforded every opportunity to do so. From the point of view of the willdlife involved, that's not a very good deal at all usually.
Blazer88
Premium Member
Well, I wanted a Ferrari as my first car when I was 16 and not a Honda. But you guys are completly missing my whole point. The corals that are $100 will only get that price IF THEY ARE MUCH MORE DESIRABLE THAN A $10 CORAL. You can't take a $10 coral from a local reefer and expect it to be $100 in the LFS, it just wouldn't sell. And if it does, it's the consumers fault for not doing their research.
My belief is that we are all in 1 big club I'm talking reefers not anything more than that 
. " I'm not going to start singing we are the world now" and our goal as hobbyists is to enjoy what were doing. and spread our knowledge as best we can. In order to do that I will trade giveaway and maybe at sometime sell ( as of yet I have never sold ) any extra livestock and or supplies that I may have in order to promote the hobby the payment for me is when someone looks at a tank of someone i helped out and says " yea I had some good help getting started" I don't begrudge anyone for selling to "supplement" your addiction. I just don't believe selling at market price or selling in order to make a profit keeps you in the category as a hobbyist. On that We can agree to disagree If we must
. " I'm not going to start singing we are the world now" and our goal as hobbyists is to enjoy what were doing. and spread our knowledge as best we can. In order to do that I will trade giveaway and maybe at sometime sell ( as of yet I have never sold ) any extra livestock and or supplies that I may have in order to promote the hobby the payment for me is when someone looks at a tank of someone i helped out and says " yea I had some good help getting started" I don't begrudge anyone for selling to "supplement" your addiction. I just don't believe selling at market price or selling in order to make a profit keeps you in the category as a hobbyist. On that We can agree to disagree If we must
Blazer88
Premium Member
I see your point but it won't ever happen in a capitalist society, not a chance. This would only work if the reefing community stopped paying for corals as a whole, but the nature of want would quickly dissipate that effect and people would be paying money again for desirable corals that are limited in supply. I find your statement "I just don't believe selling at market price" interesting, they wouldn't be selling if another hobbiest (the real hobbiest, not the one selling anything) wasn't willing to buy. This hobby is under the same market forces as just about everything else in the world of limited supply and resources. So yeah, we agree to disagree
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vessxpress1
Premium Member
Great post Barbra! Great points. Many people are more concerned with making a profit than the livestock's well being. Not that long ago, I watched a store owner trying to sell a carpet anemone with a pair of clowns to an older couple. One of which was holding a beginner's guide to saltwater book with the intent to purchase it. So yeah, even good advice is hard to come by, sadly almost the majority of the time.
I agree though that I don't think you would want everybody and their brother trying and failing at this hobby and losing that much more livestock than is already lost. Besides, you have to look at the reality of what corals are and availability. I don't know very many places within a 100 mile radius around me where I could get any type of live coral, let alone a rare piece. I have seen some things over-priced though from place to place. There is sort of a guideline I go by now.
Like you said though, the statement was over-generalizing. I've met a few hobbyists that have sold me really nice corals at very reasonable prices. Not everybody's trying to get rich. LFS' have a lot of overhead and traditionally need to charge more because of it. If you can find local hobbyists or the local club, you're going to cut out the middle man and shipping, and probably save a lot of money because of it.
I agree though that I don't think you would want everybody and their brother trying and failing at this hobby and losing that much more livestock than is already lost. Besides, you have to look at the reality of what corals are and availability. I don't know very many places within a 100 mile radius around me where I could get any type of live coral, let alone a rare piece. I have seen some things over-priced though from place to place. There is sort of a guideline I go by now.
Like you said though, the statement was over-generalizing. I've met a few hobbyists that have sold me really nice corals at very reasonable prices. Not everybody's trying to get rich. LFS' have a lot of overhead and traditionally need to charge more because of it. If you can find local hobbyists or the local club, you're going to cut out the middle man and shipping, and probably save a lot of money because of it.
benray4fun
New member
eramartin,
you're a well rounded kind person and Blazeor88 is a realistic present day business man. Nothing wrong with either ones frame of mind...
My advise to you eramartin is to be as kind as you are to fellow hobbiest only after they've proven worthy by doing something for you as you woud do for them. You're far too kind in todays business oriented "everyone for themselves" mentality."
I used to be very much like you, but I had to learn how to keep business and friendship(hobbiest) separated. Since then, i've avoided many disappointments...
Those frags did cost you something...time, electricity, salt, filter media, food and above all your desire and knowledge to see it excel. For that you'ld have to pay me if you weren't a friend in the hobby and not just another hobbiest.
you're a well rounded kind person and Blazeor88 is a realistic present day business man. Nothing wrong with either ones frame of mind...
My advise to you eramartin is to be as kind as you are to fellow hobbiest only after they've proven worthy by doing something for you as you woud do for them. You're far too kind in todays business oriented "everyone for themselves" mentality."
I used to be very much like you, but I had to learn how to keep business and friendship(hobbiest) separated. Since then, i've avoided many disappointments...
Those frags did cost you something...time, electricity, salt, filter media, food and above all your desire and knowledge to see it excel. For that you'ld have to pay me if you weren't a friend in the hobby and not just another hobbiest.
Absolutely agree. We wouldn't want just anyone to get into the hobby just because they have the dollars to do so . But I do believe that we should take care of our own. I don't think that just because the MARKET supports the price its the right thing to do as a hobbyist. Thats how a business works. . Also as mentioned this was a very broad statement there are still many people out there looking out to help others if and when they can . This board is a prime example of an immeasurable amount of knowledge that you couldn't attempt to put a price-tag on and for the most part its free ( guess I better send in my membership fee now )
RoGeTa
Member
Pipe smokers share tobacco all the time to let others try it out., and cigar smokers are forever giving out great cigars to good friends. ermartin's line of thinking about corals seems to be on the same line, and I quite agree. It may be utopian thought in todays market economy, but from one hobbiest to another, our market economy shouldn't even play a factor.
benray4fun
I'm not in disagreement on what a business can and cant do. I work for one of the larges companies in the world and they got that way by following market trends developing great products and manipulating the market pricing based upon supply and demand and squashing the competition and acquiring all the best products... that is business and thats the way a business should be.
but what you just stated was "Blazeor88 is a realistic present day business man" so in your mind he is not a hobbyist ? I don't believe he would agree with you on that statement. and thats kind of where this debate has evolved to Blazer88 told me not to trash people for making money from the hobby. And I thing if your a business man making money Great good for you. but I'm also stating If your in the hobby to make money your not a hobbyist if your supplementing because you have some extra here or there or your just fascinated with fragging and don't expect any positive return on your investment
and your right it did cost me something therefore i do not begrudge anyone for selling them. I just dont belive they need to be sold at MARKET just because I can . whether or not they cost something I'm going to continue to have my tank whether or not i can sell them or not. my costs wont change as long as I'm excited about my tank/livestock my choice to sell trade are after the fact
These are also just my interpreted definitions to each his own Id still pull over if I saw any of you on the side of the road with a flat. I might even change the tire for you if you have a couple of FRAGS to spare
I'm not in disagreement on what a business can and cant do. I work for one of the larges companies in the world and they got that way by following market trends developing great products and manipulating the market pricing based upon supply and demand and squashing the competition and acquiring all the best products... that is business and thats the way a business should be.
but what you just stated was "Blazeor88 is a realistic present day business man" so in your mind he is not a hobbyist ? I don't believe he would agree with you on that statement. and thats kind of where this debate has evolved to Blazer88 told me not to trash people for making money from the hobby. And I thing if your a business man making money Great good for you. but I'm also stating If your in the hobby to make money your not a hobbyist if your supplementing because you have some extra here or there or your just fascinated with fragging and don't expect any positive return on your investment
and your right it did cost me something therefore i do not begrudge anyone for selling them. I just dont belive they need to be sold at MARKET just because I can . whether or not they cost something I'm going to continue to have my tank whether or not i can sell them or not. my costs wont change as long as I'm excited about my tank/livestock my choice to sell trade are after the fact
These are also just my interpreted definitions to each his own Id still pull over if I saw any of you on the side of the road with a flat. I might even change the tire for you if you have a couple of FRAGS to spare
benray4fun
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9237522#post9237522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ermartin
benray4fun
These are also just my interpreted definitions to each his own Id still pull over if I saw any of you on the side of the road with a flat. I might even change the tire for you if you have a couple of FRAGS to spare
I'd pull over as well, but only if I knew you as worthy..."no frags required, but would be appreciated"...
