Steps to BB?

[hurleycr]

Ok i'm considering going BB, I have no real reason to do so at this point. As everything is perfectly fine with my 8" sand bed, however I want to lower the maintence a lot on my tank. I also have one heck of a cynao problem under the sand at least thats what it looks like not sure that it is though. Just tired of the middle layer of the sand looking like utter hell.

I'm having to reconstrcut my stand and when I do so I will have to empty the tank and its contents in order to change the stand. So I figured no is the time to change it out.


My questions are these:

1) What is the process, little bit a time taken out, all at once?

2) Does it require another cycle process, I'm assuming it would because you are removing a lot of surface area.

3) Doesn't the starboard also just collect the crap? Underneath it, at the min. it would on the sides right? Is this an issue, not to the fact that its there cuz it has to be less than whats collected in the sand, but to remove? Is it hard to keep clean? Is it cut to fit?

4) Is there an alternative to the starboard?

5) Is "cooking" the rock really, neccesarry? if it is forget it all together.

6) Do you use a floss or etc. in your sump?

7) How large of a skimmer is recommended? 1.5 to 2 times the recommended system volume?

8) Do you have to crank the flow up so much that you could keep LPS?

I know these answers are out there, but man are they buried. Some threads turn into out right fights. I was finding an answer, then twenty minutes later I would find something that would negate said answer to something else. I really, really, don't understand the whole cooking the rock thing, I always thought that turkey basting it was good enough.

Nonetheless, can someone direct me to the non-flaming articles that actually discuss the BB tanks. I'm not looking for the BB vs DSB. Just the articles that discuss the BB's how or why they work, discussion on keeping it up, and how long the tanks have been up and running with what issues/benefits they have.


Also, anyone have some pics of a large BB tank that is mostly SPS dominates with LPS/ Zoa's.

As always thanks,

 

[davidryder]

You have presented quite a challenge my friend. I can almost assure you someone won't be able to resist chiming in with their own $.02, rather than helping you. I am following along to watch, though.

 

[dkh0331]

I would take it all out at the same time. You shouldn't experience a cycle. My tank is acrylic so I don't use starboard. Cooking your rock is not a necessary step, I did tho. If you don't cook your rocks, your detritus piles will need to be siphoned more often and I would run a filter sock for a while. Flow - At any point in time, I'm pushing about 6000 gph thru my 110. As for the PS, ratings are very subjective.

HTH

David

 

[DarthBaiter]

If you use starboard, make sure you caulk the edges so that you don't get detritus under it, but most glue will not stick too good to the starboard so it might still trap stuff down the road.
I would also take out all the sand at once. I would also blow off the rocks with a power head everyday for a week or so, so that most of what settles on them from the sand storm to get draind to the sump and filtered out.

 

[hurleycr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9456872#post9456872 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davidryder
You have presented quite a challenge my friend. I can almost assure you someone won't be able to resist chiming in with their own $.02, rather than helping you. I am following along to watch, though.

I really hope not, because if so thats just ..... well. Anyway, I am not interested in the debate at all!!!! Just wanted to state it again.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9456992#post9456992 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dkh0331
I would take it all out at the same time. You shouldn't experience a cycle. My tank is acrylic so I don't use starboard. Cooking your rock is not a necessary step, I did tho. If you don't cook your rocks, your detritus piles will need to be siphoned more often and I would run a filter sock for a while. Flow - At any point in time, I'm pushing about 6000 gph thru my 110. As for the PS, ratings are very subjective.

HTH

David

How can you not have a cycle, you are removing a massive amount of bacteria, which I would think would have an effect similar to what happens when you pull all the bio-balls from the wet dry you had running for years.

If your detritus piles up then doesn't that mean you need more flow? I was under the impression that was kinda how this worked, massive flow to pick up crap and move crap to skimmer or floss? Nowhere for it to settle Someone correct me here if I misunderstood. I do understand that if the rocks are not cleaned well and even then there will be some missed, that there will be detritus in the system. It will take a while, I just don't buy in to the spend big dollars on live rock to just kill it and start over.

I'm aware ratings are subjective but what kinda power do I need for say 150 gallons?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9457890#post9457890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarthBaiter
If you use starboard, make sure you caulk the edges so that you don't get detritus under it, but most glue will not stick too good to the starboard so it might still trap stuff down the road.
I would also take out all the sand at once. I would also blow off the rocks with a power head everyday for a week or so, so that most of what settles on them from the sand storm to get draind to the sump and filtered out.

Caulk the edges? Uhm... I must really be lost here. How does water get under it then? I would want water under it right, I mean I ..........don't get that, that's stuff is hollow right? IF you cut the board to fit isn't it pretty tight to the edges anyway. Is it a big deal to just sweep, aka powerhead, the edges out. Don't see a need for caulk thats like Super Clean Crazy and stuff.:smokin: :smokin:

 

[i dont eat fish]

I took the sand out of my tanks a little at a time. I did 10-20 gallon water changes, siphoning out as much sand as I could at a time. I has a shallow bed though, with a DSB I would forsee it taking quite a while this way. I would imagine the cycle never happened as the tanks had some time to adjust to the gradual decrease in nitrifying bacteria.

I used high density polyethylene from usplastics. It was nearly half the price of starboard brand. They say it isn't UV stabilized, but mine is white. I don't really see it changing to another color. it's actually starting to get kinda pink as corraline is taking over.

I did chose to increase the flow of my tanks as I went bb. I was planning on adding SPS to my 55, and I added 2 mjmods to my 75. IME the flow increase helped keep the detrius in 1 or 2 easy to get to spots in my tanks. Now, every week or so I siphon the little piles out.

I never cooked my rocks and have seen no ill effects. I did scrub them, with a brush, in a saltwater bath the day I put the hdpe in the tank. There was a good deal of detrius on the rocks when I did this.

HTH

 

[gman0526]

My questions are these:

1) What is the process, little bit a time taken out, all at once?

Personally all at once, no need to release anything that is buried under that sand

2) Does it require another cycle process, I'm assuming it would because you are removing a lot of surface area.

No reason for this, the sandbed is more concerned about dealing with itself than anything else in the tank, as long as you’re exporting properly you shouldn’t see a cycle at all

3) Doesn't the starboard also just collect the crap? Underneath it, at the min. it would on the sides right? Is this an issue, not to the fact that its there cuz it has to be less than whats collected in the sand, but to remove? Is it hard to keep clean? Is it cut to fit?

Some have been concerned with this in the past, I can’t see how it might become a real problem if flow is properly used, the thin layer that might build along the edges in nothing compared to what get’s buried in a SB, the area will become a pod breeding ground which doesn’t hurt at all.

4) Is there an alternative to the starboard?

You can just have the LR sitting on the glass. Some have opted for a faux SB, king kong comes to mind, others have used other materials, personally I don’t have anything but the glass.

5) Is "cooking" the rock really, neccesarry? if it is forget it all together.

Not at all, you can do it w/o having to cook the rock, just be mindful that you’ll see a lot of shedding from the LR and you’ll need to somehow get that out so it won’t sit rotting in the tank.

6) Do you use a floss or etc. in your sump?

I don’t, others do use socks that are cleaned/exchanged daily or every other day. I just have a settling are in my sump that I syphon every 2 days.

7) How large of a skimmer is recommended? 1.5 to 2 times the recommended system volume?

The biggest badest thing you can afford, just dial it based on what you see happening in your tank. I like to skim wet. (0.5 gals a day tea colored skimmate) Depending on what you wanna keep go a drier or wet

8) Do you have to crank the flow up so much that you could keep LPS?

It’s not how much flow you have, but how you use it, depends on your aquascape a lot. What you want with the flow is to make sure that you keep as much crap suspended for it to be picked up by the overflow then to the skimmer and out of the system b4 it breaks down in your tank, or have it settle in a part of the tank that will make it easy for you to syphon it out. This is the part of the system that can give you the most trouble.

There’s basic guidelines to follow, but nothing is written in stone you’ll have to sit down and look at your tank as it progresses and adjust accordingly. Some critters you have kept in the past will do great if not better, some not so good just be patient and enjoy your tank. And those are my 2 cents.

 

[DarthBaiter]

The detritus gets between the starboaed and the glass it's resting on...the bottom glass. You need to seal the edge where the glass and starboard meets or you will get all kinds of stuff stuck between the glass and starboard. I'll try and take a pic of my tank from the bottom. I have worms and pods and detritus galore that I can see thru the glass from the bottom.

 

[Scottkelly911]

I run a barebottom tank, but it's never had sand in it. That being said, I would suggest when you do your water changes, just syphon the sand with it by putting your tubing into the sand and suck it up that way. This will prevent a sand storm and the releasing of things that are in the sand. Just don't stir it up while in the tank. In my Nano cube, I have about a 2" sandbed and when I get Cyano on the sand, I just suck it up, usually only the top layer that has Cyano on it goes up through the tub, but when I slip and let the tubing get further into the sand, it sucks it up perfectly well, a little too well since it's unintended. But That should work perfectly for you and just do it when you do your water changes.

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

what dkh said, except I'm going to type it again, even more

I would not take that sand out slowly
everything below about 1" of an old sandebd is anoxic toxic waste. it all has to go at once.

You have 190 pounds of rock. There is no way your tank will cycle , because basically you have only removed a small percentage of the nitrifying bacteria. It is very aerobic loving and grows on every well circulated surface area in your tank. This pertains mostly to the vast LR surface area in your DT and whatever is in your sump. These will not be removed from your system. the fishload doesn't matter either, whatever it is, the rocks etc have matched it.
sand, especially this dust used now, has crappy nitrifier density because the water flow is almost nil through it, so it can only process what migrates through it, which is insignificant compared to the high circulation populations per area

Or in other words, the wet portion of your wet-dry filter is actually in the display tank.

here's the deal:

a)put all rock and animals in temp housing, save half old water
b)COMPLETELY empty and clean tank[you have the option to save off the top 1/2" or so of your sand if you still want to have a fuge, but use new sand in the fuge too, besides the seed sand that is]
c)put half new water into tank along with old water enough to get the tank at least filled above tallest rock level
d) THEN put rocks on glass*[this is the time to stash any powerheads like to keep down in the back blown clean or aim your returns etc to get your flows set up]
e)put animals back in
f)do not feed tank for a few days

*only arrange rocks when the tank is full of water. the weight of the water offsets a lot of the rock's weight AND the resistance of the water also slows the rock's descent should you fumble.

i'm not sure which way to go regarding starboard
my only concern anymore is "how will something burn me, but good, longterm" because that's where I have taken my worst hits: problems that build longterm.

 

[hurleycr]

Awesome so far, The main reason i'm doing this is i'm tired of the cruded up middle layer of the sand bed. So i'm doing it to clean the look of the tank up. I really like the look of sand but its just not worth the maint.

Does the maint cut down any with the BB?

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

I would say the maintenance is different. Now we are keeping the bottom clean. If you are clever, and make all areas of your reef somewhat accessible. you will be able to judge how dust accumulates and get at it all, and it does from the LR and the snails.

so maybe a weekly maintenance would be to siphon some dust when removing water for the waterchange vs tippytoeing being very careful not to disturb a sandbed.

your system may not tolerate overfeeding as much, but the deal is, if you keep all corners of your system periodically disrupted, dusted and vacuumed, you will never grow a time-bomb


here is my set schedule, which I have been adhering to religiously since xmas (and my chaeto wad is fizzling out fast = low nutrients, so this is working) I do either a 6gal or 12 gal waterchange on a ~100gal system every week, depending on how I feel about things that day. This gives me "rinse water" to play with before I pour the old stuff out.

i rotate.
one week, take apart my chaeto tank with LR, siphon it clean, pick off any valonias on LR and swoosh them in the old water I siphoned, then put them back and turn the pH back on

next week, main tank turkey baste all the dust off the rocks and under as best I can to keep it from building up, then siphon as much dust from the quiet corner where it collects, as I can.
not much dust anymore now.

week 3 - sump, move the couple massive chunks of LR I can't bear to dry out, stir up the dust, siphon the corners where it collects (I have a floor drain so I can siphon my sump dry)

week 4 - do main tank again


Nothing major ever happens doing this because everything is periodically disrupted so it can't settle into some groove.
Then nothing major can ever be upset because normal life now IS regular upsets, and the biology will adjust to that.

if I can just keep my act together to stick with this for the long haul.


BTW, this is just my evolution example.

Other people have a super strong skimmer and closed loop to always blow out the dust from the DT and removed by the overskimming. this would be the more automated cadillac version (like bomber's setup, if he and/or it still exist)

and other people probably have way more elegant techniques than I'm even aware of to keep stability over time, but that is the trick: constant, regular, consistent, maintenance (like a little less work each time than but more often than a sandbed)

 

[hurleycr]

Ok so now I'm confused. I thought going BB would be easier? What kinda of "timebomb" are you referring to? You can't tell me that in a months time the dust that settles can potentially destroy the tank? Right? I mean there is years worth of crap in that sandbed of mine, granted it is a different biology. But I just cant see how it could just well blow up.

I do over skim, even with the sandbed. I have a skimmer that's rated way more than my system, and I also skim pretty wet. Not tea colored wet but certaintly not paste either.

I have two Seio's, and a closed loop running through two sea swirls running full blast. So Flow shouldn't be a concern.

I do have a huge problem with removing my rock though, there is no freakin way I can remove the live rock every time to clean it. Turkey basting yes, no issues there. But removing it to swish it. I only do water changes every couple of weeks. Usually twenty percent or more.

So maint. has to be more often, man i don't know that my schedule will allow for that. I spend enough time on it as is.

This may not be the ticket i'm looking for.

 

[King-Kong]

Couple notes on BB:

I think you have entirely too much rock. Some of the more successful BB tanks have fractions of that amount in their tanks. Rock will trap detritus in places you cant brush off/blow off, and it'll also reduce your flow.

In my 90g, I have aprox. 70-80lbs, and I still think I have a bit too much.


As for maintenance; if you have the supporting hardware (STRONG skimmer, effective flow, good rock layout), then maintenance should be non-existant. Your skimmer will be your work horse, and all you'll be busy doing is making your fish (of which, with SPS, youll probably want tons) fat, and emptying the skimmer.


and as for starboard/cuttingboard/fauxsand; Gman's right. I went Fauxsand; that is, I mixed sand with a two-part, clear-drying epoxy ONTOP of my cutting board. If your BB tank is setup properly, this work wont last you more than 2 months before the entire thing is covered in corraline, but, here is how mine looked when first installed: http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/21-faux-sand.jpg

...looks just like sand, doesnt it? But, solid as a rock.

 

[hurleycr]

Kong,

That is def. Bad Arse......

I agree I have a but load of rock, and the pieces are massive I one rock that has to weight in around 30 - 45 pounds easy. It takes everything I got to get it out all bent over and bent around and stuff. I got that much to buffer my screw up when I first started out, now four years down the road i'm much better. This also the reason I went with the DSB. IT alllows you to be lazy. Since my schedule doesn't really allow me to be home every week to do maint. thats the route I went.

I started out wanting a full blown reef, but knowing how insane the prices are for coral I didn't go full blown. I basically hodge bodged my way through for four years collecting the experience and equipment I needed to get to the goal I wanted. I think I'm there and have been collecting SPS lately like someone was going to give me a paycheck when I'm done. So that's why i'm trying to see if going BB is the best choice for me, before I just jump in.

I've always kept a really low fish load. One big fat tang, three blue damsels, three green chromis, and one yellow watchman shrimp pair. Thats it. I just feed like a demon. Usually small amounts multiple times a day, with one or two really large feedings a week. Including target feeding the LPS, and the couple SPS I've had for a while.

What is being considered a work horse of a skimmer. I have a 120 gallon, with a NW200 skimmer that pulls crap out like crazy. Which is why I overfeed. Before I had run two Aqua C's, and they just didn't allow me to feed as much as i wanted to. So I upgraded hoping that would be enough. So I didn't have to change as much water ever other week.

My flow can always be turned up, I have my return running maybe at half, the closed loop is at full. I can always add a tunze, or may one of those new eco tech's. But I've read bad things about those bad daddy's, so I may wait a while. I def. want one..... two really, but if i paid 400 bucks for one of those and it gave me problems I would jump from a window.

 

[dkh0331]

As for maintenance, every Sunday morning I will siphon the two small piles of detritus and clean my acrylic. EOW I will do a water change and once a month I blow off my rocks. I run filter socks kind of willy nilly - day or two on, a couple days off and then a day or two on.

As for skimmers, gman is right, biggest, badest skimmer that you can afford/fit. I run a H&S that is fed directly from my drain line.

I was looking at the faux sand bed bottom, but as kk stated, my bottom is all purple and pink now so I'm glad I didn't go that route.

 

[hulley]

Since I went BB, maintenance has been next to nothing compared to when I had a DSB. I read alot a did it right (I think!) and my BB set up has been very enjoyable. so much that I bought a 180g in January and I'll be setting it up for water any day now, BB of course! I'm just trying to decide on a skimmer! Looking like a Bermuda 5C.

 

[King-Kong]

Hurleyc; whatever decision you make, be sure you've spent time researching BB. I've been BB for about 1.5 years and I'm still behind the curve because I never setup the tank properly from the start (I didnt know what I was getting inti). I only had about 30-40x turnover (which with DSB and SPS wouldnt be that bad, but for BB is abyssmal), and as ASM G-2 skimmer.

I am still stuck w/ that skimmer (saving up, slowly, for a new one), but I've fixed my flow issues, and I re-did my aquascape by taking out a lot of rock (point sides of rock down, instead of flat, so that flow can get underneath the rock).

But, it hasnt been easy. Infact, if I had gone DSB at the beginning, I would have probably worked less than I have now, and had better success (till that bed got full, or until I messed up and caused some kind of sand bed crash).

BB, when does correctly however, for reef tanks, really lets you experience a powerful tank. Tons of fish, and a great coral garden with fewer possibilities for things to crash or go wrong.

As for your skimmer being enough, I dont know the numbers on a NW200, but I'm inclined to think it's not (though I know a few members on here who absolutely love that skimmer, but use it on much smaller tanks). Do you know its air lp/m and turnover rates?

Your reasons for switching should be examined. Is your tank not working now for you? Your only complaint seems to be a dirty MIDDLE layer of sand? How are your corals, your maintenance habits, and your spending? All making you happy? Don't just change because you can. Change because you feel that you have to, otherwise you may end up spending a lot of money and time, and having to relearn everything you thought was truth.

 

[hurleycr]

Well Kong,

thats funny I said kong.....

The skimmer I'm not 100 percent but I think it pull around 14 for the lpm, and turnover I have no idea.

I'm trying to learn more about the BB, hence this thread. The problem with researching the BB on this board is the majority of the things you find doing searchs all turn in to goofed up who is better flaming game.

Oh don't worry I will def. know a heck of a lot more than I currently do before I jump.

I'm around 50 - 60 times turn over, and could be a lot more if I wanted.

My reasons for switching is strickly esthics. I really like the nice clean look of a BB. I also like the look of sand, however I like the look of nice clean white sand. Yes my only complaint is the dirty middle layer of the sand. My water quality is well above average, except for temp. which has nothing to do with the sand bed. My maint. is really more scrap the freakin glass like every other day, and change 5 to 10 gallons per week. add kalk, test ph for reactor, test alk and calcium. Through half a scoop of coral vite in, and I'm done.

Corals well seem to be happy, good polyp extension great color, except for once green sps going to highlighter yellow on me for some unknown reason. Getting crazy extension from my porites.

Spending, uhm, no spending except for new little gizmos that I want here and there, not a need by any means. I see that you have the Vortechs....mmmm juicy. (how are they for you, didn't you have issues with them?)

I would really like the BB so that I can keep more fish without a fear of my sandbed getting full to quick, and the biology not keeping up with it as well. Even though I know that at some point its going to be full, and then I def. will go BB. Also it seems the extreme flow from a BB lets the SPS grow more naturally, they can get all crazy and stuff. With a DSB they tend to grow toward, around flow. There really is no way to go any higher on flow in my tank without turning it to a nice milky sand color all over. in a BB you can crank it up to the point that every single point in the tank has circualtion in it.

I don't know, i'm very reluctant to jump here, cuz I really don't have an issue with anything right now. I just dont want to have an issue in a year, and say damn I should have went BB that last time I did a tear down. I guess that is a mute point though, as nobody could really know that their tank is going to just go poof one day. Otherwise they would just prevent it. Starting to ramble good night.

thanks for the reply, i'm still on the edge of this.

 

[hurleycr]

Ok, the decission has been made. I'm upgrading equipment now, really just ditching the closed loop, and ordering two vortech's one for Right to Left, and one for front to back. I'll get the controller when it comes out as well. There is also a strong possibility I will begin to run ozone as well.

I'm ordering the 3/4"starboard and the 3/4" cell cast rod to be cut and go in it. I have already begun building a new stand so that one money comes all the way through I will upgrade more than likely to a Beckett, or Bubblemaster or something of the like. For now the skimmer will have to do.

Hey Kong , just wondering how do you like your Ushios 14K? I'm thinking of trying Ushios and don't know whether to go with the 10k for the par or the 14k for the look? I also upgraded my reflectors for the new canopy to two DE Lumenarc III mini's.

Anyway back on topic, i'm finally psych'd about this project. Its going to take a while. I will need some help though because orginally I was going to just take the rock out, take the sand out, put the rock back in. I've decided not to screw around and go all out crazy with it.

So I'm going to start this weekend building a coral rack out of egg crate, and getting my 55 ready for a holding take for the fish and coral until the 120 is back up and running. However I have some serious doubts about my ability to move the fish and coral to that tank for an extended amount of time. I really don't even know how to go about it really. So what do I do? Take water from the 120 transfer it to the 55? but the top layer of sand in it as well? I have a watchman/shrimp pair.

I'm going to clean and cook the rock as I'm struggling with a battle of green hair algae that i'm really begginning to lose my patience with. not to mention the aiptassia that has decided to over run the tank.

So since I'm going to need some massive time to get everything moved in the house, and get the new plumbing done, and to make the coral rack, i'm looking at the best way to do it and hopefully not lose any fish and coral in the process.

Any suggestions?