STN & norm parameters?

[fullmonti]

There must be some thing other than normal parameters in play here.

I have 180 sps tank up for more than a year now. I had a long running issue with algae/cyano for months (just about cleared up now). The algae persisted even though NO3 & PO4 both very low to zero for months on end. I was using zeo carbon source the hole time. Every one kept saying if you have algae you must have excess PO4. So about 3 months ago I started using some GFO, a little while after that some zeo users said I'd be better off using zeo reactor instead of GFO so I did. A little while after that STN started!!! Every one seemed to agree I must have lowered nutrients to must or too fast. I cut back flow on zeo reactor a bit & started feeding fish & corals more (have noticed corals are a bit darker with extra food). For 2 months now every thing has been Very stable, same routine every day/week. The STN so far has claimed about a dozen corals, some others have started growing back, & the really disturbing part is a couple corals have just started the STN &!!! a frag I got after the FGO/zeo reactor event Has started dying from the bottom up like all the others.

My parameters have been this hole time
NO3 about .5
PO4 about .o2
cal 420-460
mag 1350-1400
ph 8.2-8.4
KH was 7.5-8.5 it has crept up to 10, (if using zeo system it is recommended to have KH no more than 8) I have ordered some red sea coral pro salt because it has lower KH than reef crystals I have been using. Plan to start doing water changes with it in hopes to slowly lower KH

So as far as I know these parameters are pretty much where they should be, but still the STN keeps on. Is there some thing else going on, or can any one shed some light on the subject for me?

 

[Dejavu]

Running a zeo tank parameter need to be very stable. I would say that the raise in alk would have been enough to stress the corals to start STN. As you stated slowly lower your alk back into the 8 dKh range.

 

[fullmonti]

The rise in KH came about after all this started. It may be why the couple corals started so long after the original event? A friend of mine has almost identical parameters including 10 KH with no problems at all, so I didn't think that alone could be a big deal. Maybe hoping it was not a big deal.

 

[fullmonti]

Also I have no idea why the KH went up, haven't done any thing dif except feed little more. Any ideas why?

 

[dmorel]

Is all your STN coming from the bottom up? I think that's what you are saying.
I just went through this too. So did another local around here.
Like you, my parameters are spot on. I've been doing this long enough to normally be able to tell what's going on in my tank, but I have NOT been able to get to the bottom of this. I've had to chop no less than a dozen pieces. Some of which were GIANT colonies that are now nothing more than a bunch of frags. In most cases when I chopped off the affected area and removed it the rest of the coral was fine.

However I do have three pieces I'm still actively working on regularly as the STN at the base seems to come back on those no matter how much I chop.
I have NO IDEA what's causing this. A buddy of mine who has been in the trade professionally for years is also stumped. We have checked, double checked, triple checked every single parameter. Added flow, changed flow, tried anything and everything one would normally do.

Here's the one pretty interesting thing... Some of the stuff I chopped I put pieces in my frag tank. Frag tank is attached to my main system, just in the other room. The pieces that I continue to see STN on (one green milli, one green slimer, and one blue SPS that I don't know what it is) all have frags in the frag tank. None of those show any signs of STN. In fact the frags are growing great and encrusting.
I don't know what this means exactly, but it's an interesting data point.

My suggestion is cut a bit above where the STN is, discard anything below. Perhaps dip the remaining portion of the coral or at least drop some iodine on the fresh cut and go from there.

Last, but certainly not least... this stinks. Hope it turns around for you.

 

[fullmonti]

I also had frags in frag tank (same system) unaffected while parent coral died. Also had a frag mostly dead & parent just fine, I also have no idea what thats all about. Can't think of any thing more discouraging that some thing really bad happening with no idea why!

I have not changed flow or lights since other than algae every thing went fine or most of a year before all this. And yes all death has been from bottom up.

I still think that there may be some thing go on I can't really test for or point to that has caused this, if so no one has been able to say what it could be.

I mentioned corals are bit darker now I'm feeding more. Some have never looked better while some just look muddy.

Guess I'll just keep on keeping on for now & hope this works its way out, & that there will still be corals left when it does.

 

[fullmonti]

Forgot to mention another thing I don't know what to make of. How and or why can a coral be dying on the bottom & at the same time be growing & look great on the top?

 

[serpentman]

Your issue may not be chemistry related and could be mechanical. What is the flow like in your set up? I've seen colonies STN because the "heart" and base of the coral isn't getting proper flow hence growth at the tips and death elsewhere.

This would also explain why frags of the effected coral would still live in the same system.

 

[fullmonti]

Pretty sure I have plenty of flow. I have a hammerhead pump (5800gal per hr) on main closed loop with 4 way ocean motion, another smaller pump on closed loop that keeps water moving under rocks, & about 2000 gal per hr on return.

Went way out of my way to try & set up every thing the best I could, since I knew from the start I wanted to keep sps. Also have 2 400w & 1 250w in middle MH, & large Reeflo skimmer. Not that it's not always disturbing to have troubles, but it seems worse when you tried to do every thing you could to prevent them.

 

[Oldtimer]

fullmonti - Did you ever get to the bottom of this? I have a very similar issue and all my param's are exactly what they should be. I haven't been feeding my tank much since only had a few fish in a 450g system, so I believe the corals have become a bit starved. I've been feeding more heavily and adding Zooplanktos-L and Coral Aminos since 4 days ago. While some SPS seem to be extending their polyps a bit more and generally perking up, other SPS are continuing to STN. I fragged a bunch yesterday and at least a couple of them continue even though I cut well above the line. One of my larger colonies just started to lose tissue at the base. This is extremely nerve racking. I have tripple tested water parameters with diff kits just to be sure and everything is right where it should be. I see no signs of any pests and I doubt it's a pest since I have acro's, monti's and pocillopora's affected. I realize my water has been too clean. I don't do carbon dosing, but with my huge BK skimmer, fuge, DSB, GAC, filter socks, RO/DI and rediculous maintenance, I pretty much created an UNLS without trying. Trying to nurse the corals back to health, but getting concerned that something else is going on. To top it all off, I had 6 brand new fish all expire within 16 hours of adding the other day!! And, I've acclimated many fish in my time in this hobby and know a few things so it came as a complete shock to me and my LFS. I don't think it's related and frankly now I'm more intersted in addressing the coral while I still have some... fishless for a while now.

 

[fullmonti]

All I can come up with is that some corals are VERY intolerant of ANY little change. I got my tank stabilized & it ran great for 4-5 months. Then my alkalinity got low (5.5-6). It took awhile but finally figured out that my corals had grown so much my calcium reactor couldn't keep up. It has taken some time to come up with the solution to the CR problem. That has been taken care of but still trying to get some corals to stop dying from the bottom up. For the first time I had a beautiful red planet, I have given up on it!!! I have fragged it twice but it just keeps dying from bottom up.

I have resigned my self to the fact that some little some thing is always going to go wrong. And some corals are not going to react well to it, & I'm just not going to try & keep those corals any more.

I remember a thread that ask the question, what is the most important thing in a sps tank. Stability was by far the most answered.

I personally think there are any number of things that effect a reef tank that we can't test for, & it's a wonder we do as good as we do. To find the allusive balance between to much & to little of every thing, thats the answer. Some time I feel like I just don't even know what the question is though.

To show you what a masochist I am, I have added a 30 gal non-photosynthetic tank to my system. So I have a 180 full of corals that basically like almost sterile water, & a 30 full of corals that want soup. Believe it or not, I think I have it working!!!

Sorry I can't be of any more help. I fear we're all in the same some what leaky boat.


PS
Some thing most have been off to loss your fish like that. Can't help but think it's not the same thing that is giving your corals trouble though. Fish being much more tolerant than sps, one would think the corals would all die before the fish.

Pleas let me know when you figure out what's going on in your case. I'm sure it will help us all n the future.

Good Luck
Jim

 

[Oldtimer]

Yes, SPS are definitely finiky but I've done this before. I come from the days of running 6 ft tall home built counter current skimmers and when the Berlin method was cutting edge. I could keep Monti's and Acro's back then when you could get SPS in whatever color you wanted so long as it was brown. Now, the hobby is so much more alive with color and techy electronic equipment. Skimmers are much more efficient with the needle wheels now. So, my theory is that I was being far too conservative with feeding. My system can actually handle way more food. Between the skimmer, the clean up crew and my fuge/DSB all my waste gets handled very efficiently. So, I'm still hoping this is just a case of too low phosphate. The D&D kit still shows zero and the next increment is 0.008 so I know it's too low. Hoping this starts to turn around.

I completely agree with stability being the key. I don't think I have an issue with that as my tank has been rock solid. I had a small and I mean small (0.5 dkh) dip in Alk weeks back when I noticed the line coming from the dosing pump for the Alk solution was clogged at the tip. It was only like that for a day or two so it did not affect the Alk much. I'm on top of this thing like a hawk, but it still drives me nuts how things are going the way they are.

I've seen others do the non-photo tank, but I agree that's a challenge. Hope it continues to go well for you.

 

[fullmonti]

You're probably right about nutrients being to low. When I started my tank up I had bad hair algae problem. I stripped the water so much at one point trying to starve the algae I actually starved the corals to the point the colors went pale, then the STN started. The only thing I ever heard that made sense was there must have been stored nutrients in the rock. Algaefix finally wiped out the algae. It took awhile but STN finally stopped & I got a few more fish (so more fish poop) & started feeding more & it all stabilized.

I know what you mean about the old days. We lived in central Florida from high school on (late 60s). I had saltwater fish then, just fish & dead coral like the kind they sell in tourist shops. When I moved out of Florida I had freshwater fish for along time. The reef tank thing is pretty new to me. So hope I didn't sound like a know it all, or preachy. Just over sharing may be?

 

[Oldtimer]

No, not t all, I appreciate the sharing of info.

I had a problem with hair algae when I first set the tank up back at the start of the year and I believe it was phosphates leaching out of the rock, but I kept the system free of coral for months. Eventually I added a clean up crew and they pretty much wiped out the algae problem. Everything died down and I waited a while and then added a few fish and eventually slowly added SPS. I'm pretty sure that I have a low nutrient problem based on little to no problimatic algae growth, chaeto in the fuge pretty much flat as far as growth and most of the coraline is bleached. I have frags in the frag tank connected to the display and they are all responding the same. Frag tank is lit with T5's. The DT is lit with 3x 250W 12k halides and 2x 80w T5's. I have SPS on the top and bottom of both tanks and none seem to be resistant to fading. I also have some on the top and bottom exhibiting STN. I'm hoping I start seeing some real progress here shortly.

 

[Oldtimer]

I've seen STN before from the bottom up and fragged the acros and they've grown quite well, but the jury is still out this time. That was only linked to a couple acro's and it was believed to be related to over exposure to light (put them a bit high in my tank to start).

 

[sowellj]

At the risk of asking a dumb question .... anything different with the source water? I had a situation like this. All my parameters were fine. However, corals that were doing well started showing STN at the base. I was testing alk every other day and it was stable. I went through all kinds scenarios and could not come up w/anything that worked. LPS (the few that were there) were ok. It got to the point where I had just resigned myself to the fact that the tank was going to be a softie/LPS tank (the horror). After rechecking my RO/DI, after changing filters and membrane for the 2nd time, I noticed that the DI cannister was not seated well, and thus the water had poor exposure to the resin. I fixed that and did a 100% water change and things turned around. I doubt that is/was the problem, but when you start seeing global versus isolated problems, I start thinking things along the lines of source water, salt, tank contamination, etc.

 

[Oldtimer]

Good point. This is fullmonti's thread, but I will say that I know my water source is good. I have an inline TDS meter checking water out of the RO unit and then out of the dual DI unit. I use color changing DI resin as well so I know when to change it. My TDS is zero coming out of the DI unit.