Sugar Results & Phospahte Question
- Thread starter Lonnie
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MCsaxmaster
New member
Sure, suck out the water and replace it with new sea water 
@Slang:
In addition to water changes, you could try a temporary RDSB or two.
They'd add water to the system, as well as temporarily expanding the surface area for the bacteria to colonize. Sine taking them offline is as easy as undoing some hoses and moving a five gallon bucket, they seem like an easy way to deal with it.
Beyond that, i think it's worth checking your water parameters. Large bacterial blooms alter water chemistry. You tang is probably suffering from stress because of these changes, and probably needs to be moved to a hospital tank immediately.
In addition to water changes, you could try a temporary RDSB or two.
They'd add water to the system, as well as temporarily expanding the surface area for the bacteria to colonize. Sine taking them offline is as easy as undoing some hoses and moving a five gallon bucket, they seem like an easy way to deal with it.
Beyond that, i think it's worth checking your water parameters. Large bacterial blooms alter water chemistry. You tang is probably suffering from stress because of these changes, and probably needs to be moved to a hospital tank immediately.
Thanks for the replies. I will move it to the qt today. it made my pH get low. i have been doing water changes for the last two day 20 gallons each day and i plan on doing a nother 20 today. hopefully i will get everything back to normal soon. did i add to much was that my problem?
MCsaxmaster
New member
At 20 gal a day, you'll be at this for awhile and use a heck of a lot of water. Do you have the capacity to mix more at once?
cj
cj
i have a 35 gallon barrel and i guess i could go and get another one today. but will still take me more than half the day to run the ro/di water and then to let the salt sit......so if i did all this today and did the water change tommorrow would that be ok. and will 60 be enough as i don't like to fill the barrels all the way to the brim.
MCsaxmaster
New member
Hmmmm, well probably the more the better I'd say. If you have a friend or two with compatible tanks or quarantine tanks already setup it might be worthwhile to board the fish for a few days, while things get straightened out. Alternatively, if the quarantine tank would be of sufficient size that may be a better place for the fish for right now. You don't want to overcrowd and cause bigger problems though (such as too much biomass per volume leading to hypoxia).
Good luck!
cj
Good luck!
cj
Well i went out and bought 75 gallons or pre-mixed today and put just the yellow tang in the qt which is 75 gallons. did a 100 gallon water change. my system is a total of about 250 so almost half. The water is a lot clear. Do you think doing a nother 100 tomorrow would be to much? or should i just leave it for a couple days. the rest of my fish triggers, and eels don't seem to be affected by this at all.
slang,
If you are going to do this, start slowly!!! On your 250gal tank Try 1/4tsp per day for a few days, then increase to 1/2 & repeat, slowly increasing it over the weeks. Your quantity of rock & sand as well as water flow all affect the dose limits, so I can not say there is a correct amount to dose... it is all at your own risk.
Crank up your skimmer as well as it will make a lot of waste. Mine was pulling about 1/2 gal per day. I worked my 300gal system up to 3tsp per day. I would probably stop at a lower number & just wait longer to get nitrates to zero. As long as the readings decrease every day, you are on the right track. Be patient.....
After getting nitrates to zero, I reduced dosage 2 for a few days & it remained at zero. Now I'm down to 1-1/2tsp & is is still zero. I'll keep reducing until I start to get a nitrate reading.... then I found my balance point.
By working slowly, I only ever got a slight clouding of water & generally only for the first day I increased the dosage. I kept adding 2 part calcium/alkalinity to be sure ph was stable.
Some of the algae in my refugium has also started dying off. I pulled out about 1/4 of it to let the rest of it get ample food. I will slowly alter the dosage over the next month or 2 until I find a nice balance point.
If you are going to do this, start slowly!!! On your 250gal tank Try 1/4tsp per day for a few days, then increase to 1/2 & repeat, slowly increasing it over the weeks. Your quantity of rock & sand as well as water flow all affect the dose limits, so I can not say there is a correct amount to dose... it is all at your own risk.
Crank up your skimmer as well as it will make a lot of waste. Mine was pulling about 1/2 gal per day. I worked my 300gal system up to 3tsp per day. I would probably stop at a lower number & just wait longer to get nitrates to zero. As long as the readings decrease every day, you are on the right track. Be patient.....
After getting nitrates to zero, I reduced dosage 2 for a few days & it remained at zero. Now I'm down to 1-1/2tsp & is is still zero. I'll keep reducing until I start to get a nitrate reading.... then I found my balance point.
By working slowly, I only ever got a slight clouding of water & generally only for the first day I increased the dosage. I kept adding 2 part calcium/alkalinity to be sure ph was stable.
Some of the algae in my refugium has also started dying off. I pulled out about 1/4 of it to let the rest of it get ample food. I will slowly alter the dosage over the next month or 2 until I find a nice balance point.
dots
Premium Member
Update:
I have noticed something the last couple of weeks.....while doing the regular dosing, the tips of some of my SPS will begin to "receed" I say receed, because I can't determine if it is tissue recession or extreme growth that the tissue doesn't keep up with.
A few weeks ago I stopped dosing and the skin caught up. Unfortunatly, a few didn't and began to grow some algae and have been slow to grow back.
Recently, this happened again to a A. Plana I have very close to the front, I can see the polyps and there seems to be no apparent sign of trama, the rest of the SPS have large polyp extension and seem fine.
All params were within spec and nothing out of ordinary. The skin looks thick and healthy at break and just seems to be "delaminated"
I am beginning to think that my dosing is partly to cause, but am still unsure if this is massive and rapid skeletal growth or resession.
Thoughts?
I have noticed something the last couple of weeks.....while doing the regular dosing, the tips of some of my SPS will begin to "receed" I say receed, because I can't determine if it is tissue recession or extreme growth that the tissue doesn't keep up with.
A few weeks ago I stopped dosing and the skin caught up. Unfortunatly, a few didn't and began to grow some algae and have been slow to grow back.
Recently, this happened again to a A. Plana I have very close to the front, I can see the polyps and there seems to be no apparent sign of trama, the rest of the SPS have large polyp extension and seem fine.
All params were within spec and nothing out of ordinary. The skin looks thick and healthy at break and just seems to be "delaminated"
I am beginning to think that my dosing is partly to cause, but am still unsure if this is massive and rapid skeletal growth or resession.
Thoughts?
MCsaxmaster
New member
Picture?
dots
Premium Member
Im sorry, but the SLR is out of town and the phone is the best I can do. The overexposed "hot" spots are the white areas. I quit sugar dosing a day ago and imagine the will catch up again. I am guessing rapid growth......hoping more like it. The division of tissue and skeleton reminds me of tooth and gum division. The selago behind it did it a couple of weeks ago in the first occurance and since then has "caught up" with itself.
MCsaxmaster
New member
That's tissue recession. The way that corals grow is by depositing skeleton underneath their tissues, thus it wouldn't really be possible for them to produce skeleton and then for the tissue to "catch up" just like it would not be possible for a child's arm or leg bones to grow and for their skin and musculature to eventually cover the bones......that's a really sick image actually....
If this has occured since you started sugar (sugar, correct?) I'd strongly consider stopping. There have been a number of studies published recently wherein the found that dosing things like simple sugars to increase the water column DOC was a very effective way to kill corals. I'm not sure I buy the arguments that have been applied to natural coral reefs, but that definitely has bearing on dumping sugar/vodka/acetate in a reef tank.
Chris
If this has occured since you started sugar (sugar, correct?) I'd strongly consider stopping. There have been a number of studies published recently wherein the found that dosing things like simple sugars to increase the water column DOC was a very effective way to kill corals. I'm not sure I buy the arguments that have been applied to natural coral reefs, but that definitely has bearing on dumping sugar/vodka/acetate in a reef tank.
Chris
Greetings All !
BTW, for folks who haven't come across the emergent research that Chris is talking about, these ones are easy reading ...
Sugars and Bacterial Growth Kill off Coral Reefs
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/coral_bact_oct06.htm
Microbial Life in the Oceans More Diverse than Previously Believed
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/ocean_microbe_aug_06.htm
If you want an abstract that raises some rather interesting questions in terms of standard, widely accepted reefkeeping water testing practices, take this one out for a spin ...
Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality.
David I. Kline, Neilan M. Kuntz, Mya Breitbart, Nancy Knowlton, Forest Rohwer
Marine Ecology Progress Series (MEPS)
314:119-125, 2006
http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/meps/v314/p119-125/
This one isn't examining "simple sugars" so much as algal exudates, and refractory organic compounds (ROC ... organic compounds which aren't as readily metabolized as other dissolved organic compounds). This is what I'm talking about in terms of raising questions about how we're evaluating our captive marine ecosystems ...
OT ... anyone have any specific test kit recommendations for measuring DOC in marine aquaria? Other than ozonation and RDSB, does anyone have any recommendations for lowering ROC?
Thanks ! ... :thumbsup:
JMO ... apologies if this is too far off-topic.
Indeed.
Doesn't the issue have more to do with the potentially nasty consequences produced by the microbiota (as opposed to a straight-up sugar ---> coral death dynamic)?
BTW, for folks who haven't come across the emergent research that Chris is talking about, these ones are easy reading ...
Sugars and Bacterial Growth Kill off Coral Reefs
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/coral_bact_oct06.htm
Microbial Life in the Oceans More Diverse than Previously Believed
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/ocean_microbe_aug_06.htm
If you want an abstract that raises some rather interesting questions in terms of standard, widely accepted reefkeeping water testing practices, take this one out for a spin ...
Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality.
David I. Kline, Neilan M. Kuntz, Mya Breitbart, Nancy Knowlton, Forest Rohwer
Marine Ecology Progress Series (MEPS)
314:119-125, 2006
http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/meps/v314/p119-125/
This one isn't examining "simple sugars" so much as algal exudates, and refractory organic compounds (ROC ... organic compounds which aren't as readily metabolized as other dissolved organic compounds). This is what I'm talking about in terms of raising questions about how we're evaluating our captive marine ecosystems ...
Within the topic of coral mortality, have we all been testing the wrong variables ? ... :eek1: :lol: ...
OT ... anyone have any specific test kit recommendations for measuring DOC in marine aquaria? Other than ozonation and RDSB, does anyone have any recommendations for lowering ROC?
Thanks ! ... :thumbsup:
Fair enough ... but what are the differences? Is the issue simply one of scale, or are there other chemical pathways involved?
JMO ... apologies if this is too far off-topic.
The research cited was interesting. Specifically because the DOC's in the research correllate to something that i'm particularly interested in (methanogenisis), but also because of how it correlates to organic carbon. Human sewage isn't particualrly rich in Glucose. People don't excrete glucose. Even a person who cannot use glucose usually doesn't excrete it directly unless there is something very wrong (Even diabetics go to extreme lengths to metbolize glucose, producing toxic compounds in the process.).
The research does send up a red flag though. One of the organic carbon sources that is present in raw sewage in large quantities is Vinegar. (Off the top of my head i don't remember the exact cocktail coposition, but vinegar is one of the main contributors. )
Having said that, mesocosm is right, in that the article i could access (the full text scientific article was blocked without a subscription), didn't mention the relative concentrations (or scale) of DOC in the study. That's not exactly a small detail. To be honest though, it strikes me as more of an issue of ecology, then an issue of scale. It's not really ground breaking to say that corals, which occur naturally in nutrient poor water, don't do well in nutrient rich water.
Of course, that is not say scale doesn't figure into it. It's rather easy to see how a few thousand gallons per hour of raw sewage could foul a coral reef.
As far as treatments for DOC, there really are lots of options. Beyond Dillution and fermentation, Ozone is perhaps the most practical within the confines of the hobbyist setup, since it readily destroys organic molecules and can be easily controlled with the right equipment.
Anyway...
The research does send up a red flag though. One of the organic carbon sources that is present in raw sewage in large quantities is Vinegar. (Off the top of my head i don't remember the exact cocktail coposition, but vinegar is one of the main contributors. )
Having said that, mesocosm is right, in that the article i could access (the full text scientific article was blocked without a subscription), didn't mention the relative concentrations (or scale) of DOC in the study. That's not exactly a small detail. To be honest though, it strikes me as more of an issue of ecology, then an issue of scale. It's not really ground breaking to say that corals, which occur naturally in nutrient poor water, don't do well in nutrient rich water.
Of course, that is not say scale doesn't figure into it. It's rather easy to see how a few thousand gallons per hour of raw sewage could foul a coral reef.
As far as treatments for DOC, there really are lots of options. Beyond Dillution and fermentation, Ozone is perhaps the most practical within the confines of the hobbyist setup, since it readily destroys organic molecules and can be easily controlled with the right equipment.
Anyway...
Last edited:
MCsaxmaster
New member
In tanks it is easy to raise the DOC to monstrously high levels with sugar or vodka or whatever. This doesn't happen on coral reefs except maybe in little nooks and crannies where there is a lot of mineralization going on...not where corals grow. If one does get the DOC way up in a tank and gets a bacterial bloom, only God knows what is happening with the DO (dissolved o2), all the bacterial exudates, the upsetting effect this might have on species composition throughout the tank, etc. This could be a really upsetting process biologically and ecologically.
On reefs, unless a sewage outflow is right on top of the study sight, this just doesn't happen. You don't get uber high DIC everywhere.
You DO get high DIC right in the boundary layer (diffusive) of organisms that leak a lot of this stuff, namely algae and, guess what, corals! Of the production from zoox. in a day, about 50% (40 - 60% typically) is lost by the coral as mucus and DIC everyday. Corals leak the stuff like there's no tomorrow. This is one of the reasons I'm not sure I buy that DOC 'pollution' is affecting corals on reefs or that there is any kind of microbially mediated feedback induced by algal exudates to further reduce coral cover. If the corals are leaking out as much if not more DOC than the algae and the bacteria on their surfaces are NOT carbon limited, why would more DOC matter at all????
The Kline et al. 2006 paper has numerous, serious issues IMHO. I personally do not put much confidence in their findings. The Kuntz et al. work in Panama also had some pretty serious problems. As I said, I buy the idea that really high DOC can or could negatively impact corals (hence why I think dosing it in a tank is perhaps not the best idea), but I have yet to see anything that convinces me that corals out in nature are or have been significantly impacted by DOC from runoff or from algae.
My advisor is doing some followup on this work (she doesn't believe it either). Not too much has been done yet, but water samples have been taken and analyzed from a variety of places on a reef (water column, bottom, within coral branches, coral surface layer, in algae patch, on algae surface layer, etc.) and, as mention above, the corals a substantial SOURCE of the DOC on reefs and often are leaking more of it than algae....how again is the algae DOC hurting them?
cj
MCsaxmaster
New member
Rusty screws are also something I'd avoid
