Super high PO4!?!?

[Bax]

My tank has been up for six months now. All my water params are solid except for phoshate.

I do weekly or every other week changes of three gallons, RO/DI with Kent's Super Buffer. My PO4 keeps jumpnig back up. I can't find any one dead thing. My Am & nitrite notrate is 0?

I am stocking the following: two O. clowns and a fridmani Pseudochromis (the family favorite), a pepermint shrimp, fire shrimp, fromia starfish, brittle star, lots of TBS hitch hikers. Corals are, frogspawn, porites, candy cane, GSP, and a yellow sea finger gorgonian. (I also have a Turbina that crashed from the start and I am trying to rehab but it doesn't look good)

Today water params were:
Am - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
pH - 7.9 (that's abnormally low usually 8.0-8.1)
Ca - 400-450
temp - 80 F
SG - 0.0123
PO4 - 0.25 - 0.5 !!!!! (that's before the water change)

My corals and RBTA look good fish are happy. Even though I've been starving them to reduce PO4. Before doing water changes I stir up the tank to pull out what ever junk I can.

the biggest change is that I have pulled the close loop because I am building a sump and needed to do some measuring. So flow has been down several weeks. I cranked all the other power heads on the fuge skimmer and extra heads & the canister to keep flow up it is still 10x or better.

I know the sump will help (It'll be sweet, a 16 gallon high will hold 13 gallons of water! Huge fuge!!!), but I know that I still have no clue what the source of the PO4 is. Could it be the small molluscs that are dieing off on the TBS? What really makes me think it's not die off, is the Am is flat always has been.

Any suggestions or ideas?

 

[aquababy]

All things that were once alive and now dead have PO4 to give back in yuor tank. This especially goes for dead corals and to a lesser degree crushed coral/shells gravel. This might be causing your problem to reoccur.

 

[Bax]

So maybe it's the Turbina that I just can't give up on?

 

[Bax]

OK ...

What I am looking for is if anyone has found any hidden sources on the TBS that I am just not noticing.

I have good flow, even with the closed loop down for the sump construction. I blow the LR off with a turkey baster every couple of days to stir things of so it can be filtered (I get under the LR in the LR and all around).

There is no foul smell to my water.

I do have a film that is a bit stubborn, even with a Rio 180 pointed at the surface to break it up it lingers.

I fight red algea constantly and the PO4 just wont come down and stay down. Whithin a day of a 10% water change it is right back up over 0.25! Sometimes pushing 0.5!!!

I am starving my fish, and only target feeding certain corals once or twice a week and I mean I am stingy. I've cut way back on feeding for over three weeks now.

I am loosing a lot of small bivalves to oyster drills. But they leave the shells clean as a whistle.

If I can't get this down a I may have no choice but to pull the rock work appart to search for something dead. What has kept me from that exreme measure to this poiint is that my Am/nitrite/nitrate are zero.

Come on ... toss out some ideas????

 

[docklink]

Hi, Bax... I've been wondering about PO4- myself. I've just finished the cycle on the second half and Amm and NO2 are finally down to zero. I wasn't doing any water changes but finally performed one Saturday more with the thought of replenshing trace elements and in an attempt to bring down my PO4- It has steadily risen over the last 2 weeks from .1 with the first shipment to .8 (before the water change). I 've been attempting to scrape out and pull any remaing hair algae to physically remove that as a source and I've got my refuge up and running with cheato, gracillaria, and some callurpula (that I pulled) from the rock.
I read in some other thread that the slow breakdown of old shells, coraline and such can be a source fo PO4 and given the nature of the live sand in the package I was wonder if it or the rock itself was leaching PO4. I 'm going to see if a couple more water changes over the next week along with my maturing algae farm have any appreciable effect on reducing the PO4 levels. As it is, they are way too high. If worse comes to worse, I think I would try one of the phosphate "sponges" or a product like PO4 minus or phosban before ripping the rocks apart. Good luck and keep us apprised (as I will)
PS So far, I've not lost any bivalves that I can tell though I have had alot of the astrea snails just up and die. They don't look like they've been attacked and I haven't observed any thing like that. Their deaths have been like one every few days and not any mass event either.

 

[kwl1763]

I had the same thing happen. I think it is just part of the cycle with the TBS rock after a couple months.

Get you some Rowaphos or Phosban and run it in your system for about a week then replace the media and do it again for about 4 weeks. After I did this I have not done anything in over 2 months and have no detectable phosphate.

I had about 1ppm!! for a full month before and couldn't figure out why. Have others had this problem with TBS rock?

 

[Bax]

OK ... this is good stuff!

I did not know until posting htis thread that crushed shells or old shells could leach PO4. That could be a source, but I'd think it would eventually taper off.

I don't really think I have anything dead in the water because of the low Ammo and no smell. I have had things die off, sponges a turkey wing and man did it stink! I was wondering if it isn't so much one large critter, but lots of TBS related "micro" die off that kicks the PO4 up so high.

I just placed a PO4 sponge in the fuge out fall yesterday, so ofar no shange,. And I ordered some phospoban from DR Smiths along with some other dry goods late last week.

So we'll try this out.

kwl , I am glad to hear that your's finally came down.

Keep those cards and letters comming all ideas and thoughts are welcome and appriciated, who else has seen PO4 spikes like this?

 

[reefcam]

Bax, i was going to mentioned Phosban as that is what I'm using and a friend brought his Merck test over and my PO4 level was below 0.01 mg/L. Basically undetectable. Before using Phosban, I had about 0.5 mg/L and in three days, it was undetectable. I run it 24/7 due to feeding habits.

But basically PO4 can leach from LR, especially new rocks in your system. The difference between putting cure versus uncure rocks in your system is the amount of die-offs. You will get some from cure rocks, but not much. Also LR, carbon, food, dead fish, etc, can elevate your PO4 if not exported. Your skimmer will export some, changing water will export some, but new PO4 will always enter your system.

HTH

 

[Bax]

reefcam

Thanks, I was hoping the Phosphoban would work. I have seen posting both pro and con. And when posting this thread I was hoping others with TBS would confirm that it's just "micro" die off from all the diversity we get on our TBS.

I must admit I never suspected shell etc., should have realized that.

I still think the TBS was worth it. Love mine.

 

[reefcam]

Good luck with your tank. As far as PO4 leaching from LR, it's pretty much across the board. TBS rocks are just as good as Fiji, Tonga, Marshall, etc. Everyone has their preference as to where and shapes of the rocks and that's what makes this hobby so great. Every tank is different.

Jim

 

[Bax]

I actually have a mix of 30 pounds TBS and 10 pounds Tonga. I used the Tonga to cycle the tank, then added the TBS. I like the mix and plan to add about 10 more pounds of hand selected rock from the LFS. Theres one not too far away that stock everything in LR, not cheap (what is in reefing?), but you can hand pick shapes from all different types of LR.

I was thinking about it last night, and I have read many posts here on the TBS forum where folks have scrubbed thier rock before putting in in the tank, I just picked off a couple of crabs, a nasty looking black flat worm and a few things that looked dead, gave it a good rinsing and tossed it all in. I got a strong second cycle and then added a cleanup crew. I hav pulled out pieces to remove specific die off but have not sen any of that in a while.

Not scrubbing the rock could have been a mistake that I am paying for now with this PO4 spike. I had so many coarals, sponges, tunicates, bryozoa & the like that I couldn't just scrub it all off.

I do run carbon in my canister but I change it monthly and run supposedly Phosphate free carbon (Marine Pharmasuticals). I am changing the carbon to Black Diamond and adding a bag of Posphoban tp the canister this weekend. I hope this will controll the PO4 levels while the tank heals itself and the source cycles out.

My new sump should be up by the end of July and the volume will help. It would be up sooner but I am waiting for an HOB Lifereef overfolw box ... only the best for my 26 gallons o'sea ... gulp$!

 

[kwl1763]

Scrubbing would most likely not help the phosphate issue. Rocks and substrate literally absorb them and leach them out in certain water parameters. Scrubbing only means less die off and spike as you are doing a sort of "preemptive strike" by removing things that might die. Doubt it will have much change on the PO4 leach.

 

[MsReefer]

Thanks for this info. I have 180lbs of TBS rock. I started in February and my phosphates are off the chart. I've been told by my LFS, it's the die off from the rock. I'm also getting red slime agae, which grows like crazy when the lights are on. I assume the rowphos and phosban are coral safe? I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the tip on the shells. TBS package is loaded with shell filled substrate. LFS says that the die off process with come to end and phosphate will eventually level out.

I still have one Mantis left from my package. Cleaner shrimp are still intact, however I may have lost one peppermint. Barnacles are just about history, however. There are still an over abundance of crabs. The baby shrimp that I've seen doesn't make it to adulthood. I've given up trying to capture the mantis. I've disassembled my 90 Gallons on two occasions and cannot bear it again.

 

[R33f3r]

Get a phosban reactor (like $40.00) and you won't have PO4 problems. It will take about 2-4 weeks before you notice, but it does work. Keep routine water changes as well.

 

[Bax]

I switched my canister to Black Diamond with the Phosoban. Still doing weekly water changes. After a brief drop in PO4, it's back up again but I'll keep at it. And, I'll look into the Phosban reactor. Thanks R33f3r.

And MsReefer, I gave up on my mantis a long time ago. Eventually some else took care of him. I think it was either a large gorilia crab I am now trying to catch ( he is also the prime supect in the mualingof my brittle star) or my fridmani psuedochromis who got him. Either way, I am eternally greatful to who ever did the deed.

 

[docklink]

Just a follow up on the PO4 situation. Three weeks worth of weekly water changes brought the PO4 level down from .8 to .4 but it seemed to stick there. I went ahead and installed some Phosban in the flow-thru of my sump last wednesday and the PO4 is down to .1 . An improvement but still abit too high. I intend to keep up the water changes and the Phosban for a couple more weeks and see if it stabilizies near zero.

 

[reefcam]

From my experience, Phosban works better in a fluidized filter. I used to use it in a filter canister and it just solidified after a couple of weeks and rendered it useless. Now in a fluidized filter, my PO4 is not detectable by Salifert test kit and Merck test kit.

As far as carbon goes, a friend tested the Black Diamond with the Merck PO4 test kit and it measured about .015 mg/L. Since the Salifert's lowest mark is .03, it would not have detected it. Another carbon to consider is Chem-Gon which tested .007 mg/L on the Merck test.

Jim

 

[Bax]

Thanks Jim & Jeff for the replies.

I just returned from vacation. So there's been no water changes for 11 days until last night. I didn't even get to test my water yet but will tonight when I get home.

I did not have the red algea I've been getting but did have a thick coat of a brownish clear kinda gooy looking algea. It did in some of my coraline algea and stressed my corals. But, after a good cleaning with a turkey baster, netting out the algea remnants and changing about 15% of the water, every one seems better. I'll test tonight and if the PO4 is high I'll do another 10% water change.

I've only been running the phosphoban for two weeks so, I don't know if it helped or not. I had somone dog sitting for me and the only thing I had them do was feed a small pinch of flakes every other day and add makeup water daily. So, hopfully, this "starvation" for 11 days helped to bring down the neutrient levels in the tank. I thought it promissing that I did not have a huge red or green algea bloom over the 11 days I was gone. And, as bad as it was, the tank looked better than I expected for as long as it was untended.

I'll post again after testing tonight.

Bax

 

[R33f3r]

Unfortunately most of these test kits only measure in-organic phosphates, so they are pretty worthless. The rocks and sandbed absorb organic po4 and it will take a month or more before the phosban absorbs it all.

 

[Bax]

Well after the 20% water change, PO4 was still at 0.25 to 0.5.

So I'll do a couple of smaller changes through out this week.

The amount of red algea that grows in a day is greatly reduced, so I am still hopeful that I am headed in the right direction and that at least in terms of excess neutrients, the levels are comming down.

On the down side, the length of time this has been going on has really put a lot of stress on some of my corals. I have a frog spawn, candy cane , GSP, Yellow Sea Finger Gorg and a Yellow Porites. All are doing OK except the Gorg that did not like the daily covering of red slime it was getting but that seems to be over now and I think it'll be OK. And the yellow porities is really hurting. It had been doing great until a few weeks ago when it was knocked over and landed upside down in the frog spawn, it took a real bad stinging from the FS.

My Lifreef overflow box is due in soon and I'll be able to start up my sump adding 15 gallons of additional volume and a bigger fuge for nutrient export. I'll keep the HOB fuge active as a pod pile (it's teaming with pods) but, although it helps, I think it's too small for effective nutrient export.

So hopefully I am turning the corner on the excess nuetrient/PO4 problem and the Phosphoban will do it's thing.