Tangs have ich even after Quinine sulphate treatments

[EnderG60]

I have been QT and treating a group of fish for my new tank and most of them are already finished and in the tank, except for 3 tangs. A hippo, powder blue and achillies.

I did a full 10 day treatment of quinine sulphate once the treatment was over I moved them to the frag tank attached to my main system and within 4 days they had ich again.

So I moved them back to the QT and did another 10 day treatment just as the directions say, doing 25% water change each day and redosing the meds. and once that was done I moved them to the frag tank again. And again after 3-4 days they had ich.

No other fish in the tank have ich, no other new fish added have ich including 4 other tangs (scopas, desgarnini, yellow and naso) Its just these 3, over and over.

Is there something else I should be doing for these guys before I try putting them back in the system again?

EDIT : Also the system has only been running for 4 months now and was run for 11 weeks with no fish in it, and all fish added to the system were treated and showed no signs of ich. because of this and how fast the same fish show signs its my guess they are still carrying the ich, and not getting it from the tank itself.

 

[SloppyWhenWet]

If your frag tank has ich, it will come back.

 

[MrTuskfish]

If your frag tank has ich, it will come back.

.....and the frag tank does. The other fish in the tank with the returning lions may have some temporary immunity to that strain of ich. I think QS works well; but I'm not sold on it. I talked to a few tech people at a few companies a while back. They all said that QS was very difficult to keep in suspension and its impossible. I'd keep the lions in the treatment tank for a 4 weeks to allow for a full ich life-cycle. (assuming you try QS again). If they don't get ich again, but do when returned to the frag tank, you know for sure where the problem is. It sure sounds like its in the frag tank, but ich can be unseen on fish for quite a while. I know I'm may be in the minority, but I have no problem using Cupramine with lions at about .35ppm.

 

[caribfan]

I was told up and down to not use cupramine with my black dog face puffer. Used it anyway at 0.35 ppm, and had no issues. Also now have no ich. For the money, best C. Irritans treatment out there.

 

[EnderG60]

Umm who was talking about lions?

Im gonna go ahead and do a cycle of copper and then another cycle of QS and see how it goes.

 

[keithhays]

You will first need to treat all your fish and not just the ones in question. immunity doesn't mean they aren't carrying the parasites. If these fish were in the tank and have ich then all the other fish have it whether or not you see it. When the treatment dosing is finished, the infected tank needs to have been fallow of fish from 10 to 11 weeks before returning fish to the tank.

Also, I am assuming these are the instructions you followed:
"Treatment:

For a single aquarium, Use the Quinine Sulfate every 24 hours with a 25% water change before each treatment. Treat the fish for 7-10 days.



For a central system, do not treat every day. Treat every 3 days with a 25% water change before each treatment. Do 3 treatments = 9 days. This treatment varies from what is printed on the product label. Be advised!"

Also, since you are going to have the fish in holding for about 11 weeks, you may as well deworm them once the ich is gone. Remember, you are watching the fish in the holding tank for 10 weeks after the treatment shows no ich not counting the actual treatment time.

They are getting it from the tank itself and the other fish.
The timing will be the same after treatment no matter which treatment you eventually go with.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Umm who was talking about lions?

Im gonna go ahead and do a cycle of copper and then another cycle of QS and see how it goes.

Gad! I'm getting old. I was watching my lions while I was on the computer; a "senior moment" I guess. Lots of folks won't use copper with lions, puffers, and others. I guess I just had two ideas going at once. Anyhow, here's a copy of what I've posted many times about copper:

I"I really like Cupramine and use it with all new fish; have for years. I like a softer approach to Cupramine, here it is. I use Cupramine at about .35-.40 pmm, lower than the bottle directions of .5ppm. I also take several days to go from 0 to .35-.40, not the 3 days SeaChem suggests. Also, be sure fish are eating in the QT before adding any Cu; loss of appetite is a 1st sign of copper intolerance. If a fish seems to be having CU problems (this is rare); remove Cu ASAP and let the fish recover and start over. Of course, in an emergency, all of this is out the window. SeaChem (Mfg. of Cupramine) is fine with this procedure and has said they will change labeling, but who knows when. SeaChem has excellent tech support: 1-888-seachem, I think). Here's everything you need to know about Cupramine, the FAQ are great;http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...Cupramine.html

I've used Cupramine, using this procedure on more fish than most folks would believe, Enough to stock about 1000 gals of DTs before and after Katrina, and fish from other sources) and haven't seen ich in any of my DTs in many years." Be sure to remove all Cu IMO, Cuprisorb is the best way to remove copper, before doing the QS treatment, which may not be the best idea. You're fish have been through a lot and copper isn't that easy on any fish. Beats dying from ich, though.

 

[EnderG60]

Im honestly almost ready to completely give up on QT fish. I started when starting this new tank and my survival rate is abysmal using QS and Prazipro. I never hand problems not QTing before but figured Id be safe this time around and its been nothing but a curse.

Im not going to bother treating the whole tank, to many corals and Ive already broken it down to catch all the fish for the 11 week fallow period its already gone through, and I honestly would rather break the tank down then do this again.

If these fish get ich again after this treatment I will simple retreat them and sell them. This is getting out of hand. Ive had 6 little fish in a 300 gallon for 2 months now because nothing is making it out of QT.

 

[HumbleFish]

Im honestly almost ready to completely give up on QT fish. I started when starting this new tank and my survival rate is abysmal using QS and Prazipro. I never hand problems not QTing before but figured Id be safe this time around and its been nothing but a curse.

Instead of giving up on QT, just change the way you QT. I've never used QS before, but I've had pretty good success using Chloroquine Phosphate and copper treatments. In fact, there's this thread that offers several positive anecdotal experiences from those who are using CP.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Im honestly almost ready to completely give up on QT fish. I started when starting this new tank and my survival rate is abysmal using QS and Prazipro. I never hand problems not QTing before but figured Id be safe this time around and its been nothing but a curse.

Im not going to bother treating the whole tank, to many corals and Ive already broken it down to catch all the fish for the 11 week fallow period its already gone through, and I honestly would rather break the tank down then do this again.

If these fish get ich again after this treatment I will simple retreat them and sell them. This is getting out of hand. Ive had 6 little fish in a 300 gallon for 2 months now because nothing is making it out of QT.

QT is safe, easy, and effective. I'd research the subject and find out where you're going wrong.

 

[EnderG60]

If it was as easy as researching to find the problem I would have found it a month ago.

Ill give CP a try though, but Im getting tired of watching fish die.

 

[Ostara]

Did you say that your frag tank is connected to your display, and your display has had six fish in it? Did you ever fallow the entire system, without a single fish in the whole system, for at least 10 weeks after the crypt had shown up?

 

[HumbleFish]

Ill give CP a try though, but Im getting tired of watching fish die.

Just a thought; Is this happening with newly acquired fish too, or just these same 3 tangs? I had a stretch a few years back where I was losing almost every new fish I bought. Then it occurred to me all these fish were coming from the same LFS. So, I placed a large online order (with Liveaquaria) and didn't lose a one. Seems the problem wasn't me or with how I was QT'ing my fish.

 

[EnderG60]

No I have a completely seperate QT system. The frag tanks are connected to the main system but I just put fish in there to observe them before adding them to the display in case I need to catch them again.

The whole system was fallow for 11 weeks, while all the fish were given a 14 day QS treatment and a 1 week prazi treatment. Then in the frag tank for a week, then into the display.

It was during that first time in the frag tank the hippo showed signs of ich after 2 days so he went back in the QT for another QS treatment.

After that one treatment I got a new batch of fish, and put them in a separate part of the QT(it has 4 parts(30g each) that can be totally seperate or run together) The new batch of fish was 30 chromis, 3 square anthias, 5 cardinals, a scotts wrasse, purple tang, sailfin tang, clown tang, naso tang, achillies, powder blue and a scopas.(and this is from two stores)

Note the QT system was and is fully cycled.

They all got a 14 day QS treatment. In that time I lost the clown tang, purple tang, 15 chromis.

Then I did 1 week of prazipro. In that time I lost everything but the Powder blue, sailfin, scopas, achillies, naso, and A chromis.

water quality was perfect, meds all dosed per instructions on the bottle.

The remaining fish were added to the frag tank. Within 3 days the powder blue, hippo, achillies all showed ich, and were put back in QT again. This time with copper. Day 4 the scopas had ich and went back to QT as well.

Next day the scopas was dead.

Today I came home to find the naso on the bottom of the frag tank twitching.

The sailfin and chromis are the only fish from that batch that are still ok, the hippo, achillies and PBT still have ich but are eating and in the copper now.

I think I got all that straight....No fish in the display show any signs of anything. Any fish that showed signs of ich was removed the same day so Im fairly confident non dropped off in that time frame.

Im just not 100% sure if I didnt fully kill the ich they had or if I didnt fully kill it in my system but Im on the brink of giving up here. I never in my 15 years doing this had this much trouble with fish death.

 

[HumbleFish]

No I have a completely seperate QT system. The frag tanks are connected to the main system but I just put fish in there to observe them before adding them to the display in case I need to catch them again.

The whole system was fallow for 11 weeks, while all the fish were given a 14 day QS treatment and a 1 week prazi treatment. Then in the frag tank for a week, then into the display.

Just to clarify... Did the fish that were treated go into the frag tank before or after the 11 week fallow period?

 

[EnderG60]

after

 

[keithhays]

You need to read this thread on Quinine Sulphate. This OP contacted the doctor directly and got different dosage and treatment guidelines. There are specific instructions to lighting that contains UV, etc for Quinine:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1750806

 

[EnderG60]

I have read that thread, I tried the one treatment for 7 days and ended up with dead fish and some that were on the bottom twitching. Put survivors in clean water and they came back around.

Then tried the 3x9 day, go to day 15 same results. So I went to the 10 day(25% wc and redose daily) and did that for 14 days and the fish lived.

 

[EnderG60]

Found my achillies on its side breathing heavy this morning, so I moved him out of the copper(which was only at 75% recommend dose at this point) but I doubt he will make it another few hours.

This is officially turning into a nightmare

 

[DrPat]

Found my achillies on its side breathing heavy this morning, so I moved him out of the copper(which was only at 75% recommend dose at this point) but I doubt he will make it another few hours.

This is officially turning into a nightmare

Sorry to hear you are having such problems I have a few questions How big is your Q tank.
How many fish do you have in the Qtank ?
Is there a UV filter on the qtank?
Is the water returning to the dt from the frag tank uv filtered?