Tangs have ich even after Quinine sulphate treatments

[Mrscribbled]

A ten day treatment using any medication for ich is not long enough, cysts will still be present in the qt. If you did a very strict 11 week fishless fallow on the display with no added coral, inverts then the treatment was insufficient. If you did add some un quarantined frags during the fallow then you reinfected the display.




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[EnderG60]

Achillies was found dead this morning....

I added nothing to the tank durring the fallow period. QT system is 2 75 gallon tanks(both divided into 2 parts) with a sump and 5g of bio balls, a skimmer and UV.

The display has a UV but it is not directly connected to the frag tanks or anything. just circulates water.

The QT system now only has one section running with 3 tangs in it. It was cycled with 7 fish and then added to over about 2 weeks and then treatment started the last time.

I never saw any ammonia or nitrite after the first week, and the water changes for the QS kept the nitrites pretty low.

 

[sandwi54]

You need to read the ich sticky at the top of the forum. Ich's maximum life cycle in tropical temperature (~77 degrees) is 28 days. A 10-day treatment is not nearly enough. I have never used Quinine but it is not yet a scientifically proven method to treat ich. I have treated many fish for ich with cupramine and I have never had a dead fish or one that was not cured.

If you want to do things the right and proven way, go with cupramine for 4 weeks. If you follow the protocol 100%, your chance of curing ich is 99.7%.

 

[triggreef]

Its in your display. You said you noticed signs on those three tangs after putting them in the frag tank. By the time you noticed signs it had to drop cysts in the tank. It infects their gills first and by the time you see it on their fins and body it has already been there for some time.

Your probably successfully treating these 3 tangs and putting them back into an infected DT. Sorry If it makes you feel better I think I might be looking at another fallow period myself. I know it makes you want to throw in the towel.

 

[wmilas]

I feel your pain. I've been through it. When my father was very sick (hospice) I stopped by a fish store with one of my daughters to pick up some frozen food. She went gaga for a dragonette at the LFS. In a moment of weakness I bought it. (I normally never buy LFS fish). I have a large QT system at home. Everything coming is is Prazi-Pro for 2 weeks, then coppered for 4 weeks.

Knowing that the dragonette would not live through the process, and not thinking straight (was thinking at the time how the dragonette could not contract ich because of its skin type) I threw it into the main display. Yea, I know, stupid. But like I said it was a stressful time in my life and i wasn't thinking straight.

Long story short, my father passed away. I did not spend any time with my tank for 5 days. Came home one night to a horrific smell. 60+ fish dead, rest with a raging ich infection.

It was the %*@^% dragonette.

10 fish out of maybe 80+ lived. Amazingly the tangs fared the best. A yellow, a scopas, and a blue made it.

My tank is too big to try and catch the survivors. I know it sounds like BS but I've tried. I'd have to completely drain it to do it, or close enough to be a nightmare.

My tank for the last 2 years has ich. It just does. I live with it. Its either kill all the coral in my display, or live with the ich.

I did a bit of research on how large holding companies and aquaria's battle ich. They know they will always have it.

Most of the people here will tell you to tear everything down and make sure you are ich free. I've gone the other route.

Massive UV system. no, it does not remove the ich. Yes I have ich in my tank. Yes I still QT with prazi-pro. But 3/4 of a killowatt of UV in mys system stops Ich from reaching plague levels.

Is it the "right way" to do it? No. If I had a smaller system I'd get a 100 gallon brute and fallow out my DT. I don't have that option.

If it matters I rarely if ever see any signs of ich now. I haven't seen it in 6 months... but I know its there.

If you do decide to go the UV route, beware. Its not cheap and you need ALOT of it. You need minimum 1 watt per gallon if using a high end commercial system which tend to be much more efficient then smaller residential units.

 

[Hens4Fish]

In my opinion QT for fish is really a waste. I have all healthy fish in my tank. There are times that the fish get ick, from stress, like when I add a new fish or something, but i they are eating and healthy, they always get better. Only time I had problems was when I was QTing them, and trying to fix the problem with chemicals. In my opinion ick and most other diseases are like a cold for us. As long as we are healthy otherwise, and eat right, and not get stressed, we get over it. Never had a problem since. Plus if you have the fish in QT, then move them to the tank, the stress of the move causes an outbreak of ick again. Unless the fish comes in covered in ick, put them in the tank and feed well. Just what works for me.

 

[HumbleFish]

In my opinion QT for fish is really a waste. I have all healthy fish in my tank. There are times that the fish get ick, from stress, like when I add a new fish or something, but i they are eating and healthy, they always get better. Only time I had problems was when I was QTing them, and trying to fix the problem with chemicals. In my opinion ick and most other diseases are like a cold for us. As long as we are healthy otherwise, and eat right, and not get stressed, we get over it. Never had a problem since. Plus if you have the fish in QT, then move them to the tank, the stress of the move causes an outbreak of ick again. Unless the fish comes in covered in ick, put them in the tank and feed well. Just what works for me.

Ich management can work, so long as you can control everything. Feedings, SG, temp, etc. Of course, when (not IF) Murphy's Law kicks in... and a hurricane/ice storm comes, or a heater goes haywire, or a feeder/ATO fails while you're on vacation... you're gonna wish you had given yourself the wiggle room of having an Ich free tank. As far as not QT'ing, one encounter with Amyloodinium in your DT will probably change your mind about that.

 

[sandwi54]

As far as not QT'ing, one encounter with Amyloodinium in your DT will probably change your mind about that.

+1000 on this. Far too often people get too hung up on ich and forget there are much deadlier parasites such as velvet and brooklynella. I was hit by velvet once, and thank god I quarantined, otherwise all of my fish would've been dead.

 

[wmilas]

I agree. QT must be done. It gives the fish time to acclimate. It give you time to check for flukes, worms, ect. If I had incoming fish develop ich in qt I'd copper them and kill it. My point about my display simply was that I can't get it out. Therefore I live with it. No way I'd add a sick fish, or a potentially sick fish to my DT.

 

[Hens4Fish]

Do you think that it matters who you buy your stuff from? I have only bought my fish from 2 websites for most of my tank experience, and I never got anything but ick on my fish, which always cured itself in healthy specimens. My point was just that when I have tried to QT fish, it seemed like once putting them in the DT they would break out right away, from the stress of a new environment. Also, I have read before that ick is in every tank, even when there are no signs of it and the fish only show signs when they are immunocompromised. I will admit that I use a UV sterilizer, but some people say those dont do anything, and some swear by them. The funny thing about this hobby is there are so many different ways to successfully keep a salt tank, and as long as it works, it works
By the way, Sand...nice french. I have an 11" french myself. Monster of a fish though. Grows like 8" a year....

 

[wmilas]

I think it does indeed matter who the fish are bought from.

I have bought online from Live Aquaria/DD, Blue Zoo, and Saltwater fish. I have received fish from all *3* that have had some form of infection. However from least to most severe I would rank them in the order listed.

As an aside, I have had terrible luck with clams from anyone except DD. I have never had a clam live from Blue zoo which I find odd. They all perish 2-4 weeks after receiving them. No pyramid snails. I keep clams no problem in my system so I think something is odd at Blue Zoo. My belief is that they are treated with something there that slowly kills them.

I have had worse luck with fish at local fish stores.

My belief from experience is that all large holding facilities have disease in their tanks. Some fish my be infected that pass through, some may not. I know that DD (from their online videos) runs massive UV systems on their tanks to keep pathogens under control. But that does not mean that they are eradicated.

If you put a fish into your tank, OR A CORAL THAT HAS BEEN IN A FISH SYSTEM without coppering the fish, or letting the coral lay fallow in a fishless tank for 12 weeks, you *WILL* introduce ich to your tank. If you believe otherwise you simple don't understand how the disease works.

So you either make 100% sure that nothing goes into the tank that can possibly contain ich, or figure out how to live with a tank that may have ich.

As far as UV goes, it does absolutely nothing unless it is powerful enough to kill protozoa. That means powerful UV with slow flow. I am not aware of a residential system that actually meats those qualifications and can actually kill free swiming ich. Its cost prohibitive until you get into the larger holding systems.

Emperor Aquatics makes the lowest end systems that are suitable for residential use. Just make sure its sized correctly.

 

[Hens4Fish]

I guess I view it a different way. How can you be 100% sure that all liverock you have doesnt have ick on it before and when you buy it? If any of your fish ever have had ick in your tank, its in your rock, sand and everything else in the tank. If you dont QT and dip all of your corals, fish, rock, and anything else you may put in that tank, its probably in the system. Even if you do, its possible that its in the system already. Not many people have the discipline to QT everything they get for 12 weeks, and yet most fish in a healthy system are ok. I suppose if you were starting from a completely sterile system, it might be possible, but most of us get rock, corals, and other things from fellow reefers and our fish live just fine. To me, its all about having healthy fish. As I stated above, colds are normal for fish, people, if you are healthy enough, you fight it off.
Also all of the research I have read says that UV indeed do work, if you keep it at the correct flow rate for maximum exposure. I use a turbotwist and even though my fish get ick when adding a new fish, they get over it and never seems to bother them. That is just my opinion from what I have read.
The most amazing thing about this hobby is how everyone thinks they are the expert and know more than the next guy. The way they do it is right, because its always worked, or they did research, or their friend told them....whatever it is, we all think we know the best. I do not claim that I know everything, or am an expert, I am just sharing my experience with what I have done and worked. It seems that you can get conflicting info to support any opinion, I think its the OPs job to filter what they want to take away and feel comfortable with. But I cant say that I have ever heard any solution to aquarium problems that are 100% effective.