Tank Nuked another Mystery

[firefish2020]

Bad news again everyone. In a manner similar to the post I made around Easter last year I have to report an incident in my 150 gal DT at the shop. It appears that there was an unknown event that took place yesterday that has resulted in a barren wasteland where once a full coral reef once stood.

However unlike last time when it was my fault all coral except maybe 1 or 2 made it through (Mary your frog spawn may not make it this time). We performed an emergency water change last night after the shop closed and fired up the Phos reactor full of Carbon and initiated a massive coral exodus. pH is now around 8.4-8.5 a bit high but nothing like last years event.

Now the strange part, almost all snails and hermits were lost to this event, however a feather duster was perfectly happy? It only affected coral.

Before this incident I added (like I always do), Calcium (Reef Complete) and a bit later a 100gal dose of Supper Buffer (seachem) I always add less than the recommended dosage to be safe.
Following a 35-40 gal water change Alk tested at 1.5 today WAY TO LOW. Cal around 380.
Copper test was negative
Chlorine (THANKS RIO GRANDE) Test was also Negative
Once again, it seemed a lot like my previous high pH events except there was no fallout, and the snails were belly up.
<b>
I am left with 3 possibilities:
1. Direct sabotage, there was some serious skimmer action and the stuff that came out had a strange smell to it.

2. My additives had some how gone bad, don't know can this happen on this scale?

3. Cross contamination of the mix vessel. This is almost ruled out now.
As I said all coral and anemone are recovering quite well and will be back ASAP, it pays to have reef buddies.
</b>

 

[rnhrtfan]

I was in there yesterday afternoon around 3:30 the MH's were off and the tank was looking really weird I thought. Looked like alot of hair algea and funk I thought you just had the MH's off to control the hair....

 

[foxesreef]

Ron,

Do you all or maybe you (I have no idea) have enemies that you are aware of that maybe have been in the store at times when things come up missing or strange events? This is rather peculiar. By the word enemy, I mean to say possibly someone that is jealous, envious or trying to somehow distract you all.......

If you do not already have them, put up security cameras. First and foremost, the animals that are housed do not deserve this. If this is an accident, well we all have made those, but in case of sabotage.....

Anyway, I hope it is not as severe as last years. We will all have to pull together to get it stocked again for yo

 

[foxesreef]

Sorry

double post

crazy computer

 

[Tazbader]

Ron I'd repeat that Alk test, if it runs the same then it was definately a fallout of some kind. It doesn't always snow in a fallout. But that shrimp should be toast like the other critters. As I'm sure you could assume any frags I can grow out for you and Barry are yours. I'd hate to see no sps in the shop. even if it ment a smaller tank. I'll do some reading in my older references and see what it says about such a fallout in Alk. Lemme know if you need anything.......................

 

[Kung]

What about your crazy neighbor? Is he escalating his battle with your shop?

 

[Tazbader]

I am wondering if either of those additives had any EDTA or if they were chelated. I still think it could be a temperature/O2/CO2/PH thing, I've read about something like this before.... I've just got to find it. That smell is of decay, it smelled just like fresh live rock curing in a warm vat. I highly doubt sabotage. That would've been chemical, say a poison or soap and everything would've been toast fast......... not like this. Plus there would've been alot more foam and the algae wouldn't have died so quickly. I wish we had some Alk KH Ca PH test results for the original water from the tank as this was occuring..... something doesn't jive. It is really strange that the halimeda didn't die or the little commensal shrimp.... and the fish are running around like nothing ever happened.............

 

[firefish2020]

The smell last night was not decay, today was a different smell, I give that to you as decay yes. The foam in the skimmer did not look normal, the bubbles were large like soap bubbles but not iridescent colored which sort of rules that out. Temp was not an issue I'm sure of that, 80 degrees fan was running as well.
Original levels last week of Ca were 280 Alk-3.0 meq/L pH was 8.5
Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate 0, P04 .02

Yes the algae dying off is another part of the high strangeness of the event, never seen anything like it before. I do not believe this was a high Ca event, seen to many of those this is different.

 

[mcox33]

I agree with Kung, all past antics accomplished was that the CVRC had to move it's meeting place, which prevents Barry from being able to attend. But the members still shop at the same places we always shopped and did the same as we always have. And we all know jealous people do some really mean things. And generally consider it okay so long as it is only animals and not people involved.

Or it could have been someone who wanted to purchase something that was not for sale and figured if they could not have it then why should Barry and Ron have it.

 

[coralreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12069750#post12069750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by firefish2020
Yes the algae dying off is another part of the high strangeness of the event, never seen anything like it before. I do not believe this was a high Ca event, seen to many of those this is different.

Algae die off? Almost sounds like it could have been some type of bacteria bloom. Bacteria consumes alk which could explain the drop. It could also cause O2 and CO2 problems. Doesn't really account for the snail/crab die off or the smell though it would cause the skimmer to go nuts.
I agree it was not a high calcium event especially looking at your levels. Even if one of the additives went bad, which I'm sure they didn't, it wouldn't cause an alk drop. FWIW I've never seen it mentioned that either are chelated.

I highly doubt sabotage. That would've been chemical, say a poison or soap and everything would've been toast fast......... not like this.

I agree...unless somebody dumped a carbon source in it which I doubt but...
Do either of you think the algae die off could have caused the decay smell?

 

[Tazbader]

Quote from Master Ron,"Following a 35-40 gal water change Alk tested at 1.5 today," guys it has to be a fallout. They changed the water and the fallout wasn't done so it kept going with the new water until the KH bottomed out all the way. It explains the algae dieoff and the inverts and SPS all toasting out so fast. Even today the water looks milky. FWIW, Martin Moe's book "The Marine Aquarium Reference" and Albert Thiel's book "Advanced Reefkeeping" both mention this kind of fallout......

 

[firefish2020]

Again I have had major Ca fallouts caused by high pH in the upper 10+ range that did not look anything like this incident. The tank looks a bit hazy but that could be due to a number of things at this point. Also noted in past Ca fallout events there was a noticeable precipitate that coated the walls and rocks, this event had no such characteristics.

Low Alk is normal in that tank following a big water change with IO salt thats why I almost always have to buffer after a change. Ammonia tested at about 5 ppm this morning and another 35 gal water change was done. Skimmate looks a lot more normal today as well.

I posted the copper test yesterday as zero, however unlike the other tests I did not conduct that test personally and could have misunderstood. Today I tested copper and received a reading of .025ppm this was after the water change a day before. I tested a control tank which uses the same water for top off and it tested 100% negative. A .025 reading is easy to miss unless you know the shade to look for or test against a control. Like I said, I may have misunderstood but I could have sworn I was told the copper test was 0 yesterday.

Copper would count for invert die off but not sure about macro algaes?

 

[carb850]

What causes a fallout? How can it be avoided?

 

[crabfan]

Copper

Copper

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12074964#post12074964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by firefish2020
Re-test of copper today showed a positive of .025 ppm.

Sincerely sorry to hear about the loss. Very sad.

If copper is positive that explains the loss. The question is where did the copper come from? I know the shop probably has an RODI system - so the source water was good. Right??

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12074964#post12074964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by firefish2020
Copper would explain the coral and invert die offs IMO not sure about algaes though?

Depending on the copper level it could have killed the algae. Isn't copper sulfate and other copper compounds the primary active ingredient in algaecides for ponds and lakes?

But again, if it is copper, how did it get there? I'm trying to be positive and not think the worst. We all know some of the store patrons are shoplifters, have stolen large tanks, stolen birds, stolen coral, etc. I don't want to believe someone has now risen to an entirely new level of evil by poisoning the store show tank. This loss has to have another cause.

This may be a crazy idea, but could it have been an "unintentional" introduction by a child? Several years ago I had a conversation with a Central Ky reefer who reported a mysterious mass coral dieoff. After going through everything, he finally discovered his copper was elevated. Only after completely tearing down the tank in frustration, did he discover several pennies in the sand. His theory was that his toddler was having great fun throwing coins in the pond.

I haven't ever saw the 150 (except when it was bare and you were working on the plumbing), but did it have a secure canopy, or was the top open and easily accessible? Was the bottom bare where you can see any foreign objects?

 

[firefish2020]

Hey Carb, a fallout like in the event last year in the old 125 and home tank is usually caused by adding too much Kalkwasser into a system way to fast, this will cause a massive imbalance in the tank which results in a fallout or "snow" event. As the alkalinity causes the calcium to drop out of suspension and settle on anything in the tank. It is easily distinguished as it is a white dusting. The dust or precipitate is not the danger though. The sudden increase in Kalk raises the pH quickly to dangerous levels this is what usually what causes the die offs in these events. In my incidents the pH reached +10 on a digital pH meter. I added CO2 via shaking and opening under water carbonated water bottles, it took about a dozen to lower pH from 10 down to 8.5.

In those instances I traced back to the the skimmer which overflowed for whatever reason which caused the osmolator to kick in to replenish the waterloss. Fifteen minutes of pumping in pure saturated kalk (after 15 minutes osmolator will shut down so had to be only 15 min), and the tank was turned to milk.

I had this occur at home as well in this case the water was so milky that I had to memorize where coral was to remove it to a nearby tank. Several days later the precipitate settled out and looked like a snow storm but it all went back to normal. Even SPS that were bleached in this event did come back over a period of months.

I learned from all this to use my osmolators high water shut off feature to control the exact water level to a minimum of 1/4 inch about 2 cups in my case. If 2 cups of water (kalk saturated) enters the sump the emergency shutoff kicks in on the osmolator. You can also use a 2 stage pH controller to shut off your ATO in a overflow event.

Phil can give you the actual science behind it but a high pH Kalk incident is practically inevitable at some point in your reef keeping career IMO, learn what you need to do to minimize any damages and you can have a full recovery in short time.

 

[carb850]

Thanks for the explanation.

Getting off topic, but what caused your sump to overflow last year?

 

[firefish2020]

I don't want to believe someone has now risen to an entirely new level of evil by poisoning the store show tank. This loss has to have another cause.

Yeh would rather not believe that as well, but it has to remain on the table for now. Also allegedly Petland was hit about a month ago by a poisoning incident I believe it was dish washing liquid.

We thought about the penny thing and if it were a child it would be impossible unless he/she threw it and just happened to get it past the openings in the top. We have a 72" current Orbit Halide sitting on top which practically acts as a lid. It would have to have been an adult or teenager if this was the case. Also you have to remember I checked this tank when I came in and it looked great just like every other day, when this happened it happened fast, all at once. Zoas closed first then leathers started closing up a few hours later the LPS were retracting showing only skeleton. Another few hours heavy slime was being secreted and within 3 to 4 hours frags of ORA Turquoise stags were turned from bright blue to splotchy white, when looked at closely you could see the tissue separating.

It's a very strange incident and I have to look at all possibilities.


Carb:
As far as I can tell there was a failure in with the Super Skimmer (also the same as at home), before I started modding them they had a tendency to overflow for almost no reason at all. When this happened the chain reaction occurred which caused the damage.

 

[rnhrtfan]

Well Ron I have a Ric for ya if you would like.....

 

[firefish2020]

Thanks I'll let you know that was one piece I only managed to get a small frag of out.

 

[phljess]

Just FYI, precipitation does not always mean there must be high pH. Precipitation occurs when water becomes too saturated to hold calcium or some other chemical in solution at a specific temp.

But I also do not think it has to completely bottom out before it stops falling out of solution. I may be wrong but I doubt it. When a tank precipitates it also forms calcium carbonate which will lower the alk and cal of the tank.