Tank Transfer vs 1 QT

[wooden_reefer]

Ick is basically a dead horse.

QT very well, and always be on guard against contamination, and you likely will never see it again. Actually, understand the need to eliminate ick is a good first step. I have not had ick for decades.

The other diseases are more uncertain.

 

[HumbleFish]

What are the benefits from the TT method that you can't accomplish from using one QT?

Chemical-free solution to ich, which is by far the most encountered disease.

Ammonia is less of a concern, since the fish gets new water/new everything every 3 days. Ammonia neutralizers can be used with TT if the need arises.

 

[GroktheCube]

"I've never seen any evidence that a UV sterilizer substantially reduces the risk of opportunistic bacterial infection."

I have.

This is hard to prove because it only reduces the opportunity but does not eliminate it.

I'd say when a UV is properly set up, the need to use antibiotics is reduced by 70-80%.

Plus, with a properly set up UV, the spread is much reduced among fish in the same tank.

This has been my experience in the past decades.

The UV is not used when a drug that is degraded by UV is used. The need to use these drugs for the duration of UV is reduced.

The UV certainly has it limitations but it is my first line of defense against external bacterial infection; it is a little like the sterilizing impact of the sun, also limited but significant.

I feel naked without UV for QT of fish.

The catch 22 here for me is that bacterial infections are extremely rare. The only time you really see them are in fish that have severe ich, velvet, brook, or flukes, along with the occasional wound. A UVS prevents you from effectively treating any of those diseases, as it will degrade or render toxic dewormers, antibiotics, or bound copper. Even if UVS use were to somewhat reduce the odds of infection, it wouldn't matter, because you wouldn't be able to treat the root cause of infection anyway.

This has gone a bit off topic, I guess my point is just that the inability to use a UVS doesn't seem like a negative for TTM, because I find them useless anyway.

If you find it helps you, go for it.

"On the ammonia front, fish are always exposed to "some" ammonia under any circumstances. What matters is whether or not they are exposed to toxic levels of ammonia. Preventing toxic levels of ammonia while doing TTM is trivial. A little bit of prime does it, and sometimes with smaller fish or larger water volumes, that isn't even necessary. "

In a typical way TT is done, the ammonia level is not extremely low. It is at least moderate.

It is possible to do TT without any ammonia or Prime, but such way is not talked about much.

Why do you say that? Many fish won't even produce enough ammonia over a 72 hour period for it to reach toxic levels in a decent sized QT. If ammonia levels are a problem, prime easily neutralizes it.

Prime itself is harmless at the doses in question, so why bother jumping through hoops to avoid its use?

Ick is basically a dead horse.

QT very well, and always be on guard against contamination, and you likely will never see it again. Actually, understand the need to eliminate ick is a good first step. I have not had ick for decades.

The other diseases are more uncertain.

Ich is certainly relatively easy to prevent. TTM just guarantees its elimination in under two weeks and makes drugs unnecessary. It cuts a lot of time off of quarantine, and easily eliminates the most common disease we have to deal with.

To me, TTM means that I can cut my QT time in half, and easily eliminate what is far and away the most common disease very quickly.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Ammonia is very toxic; don't accept a moderate level; however, point is also truth that it is possible to do TT with zero ammonia.

I am quite certain that external bacterial infection is a real threat and that the UV helps.


The two major disadvantage of TT are that handling of fish reduces their adaptability (don't eat as well as soon) and TT does not address other diseases well.

It is also more work on the aquarist.

Slow QT with proper preparation is almost effortless on the aquarist and this promotes completeness in QT. Waiting is easier when there is little work.

 

[wooden_reefer]

A tank is a closed system both chemically and pathogenically.

The most striking and common result of this pathogenically closed natural of the tank is ich infestation, but it is also important for other pathogens.

The UV does duplicate the sterilizing property of sunlight for bacteria, very small and vulnerable to UV. For waterborne bacteria, the tank approaches an open system when there is a properly set up UV.

Other diseases are not rare, just not as common as ich.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Pro TT is the absence of drug needed to treat against ich.

Against are:

1. TT does not address other diseases.

2. TT interferes with adaptation of the fish; many fish will not eat well after being handled often. Nutrition is compromised.

3. TT does not solve the problem of ammonia as well as slow QT with cycled medium.

4. TT is more demanding on the aquarist in terms of work/time spent

5. skill in TT does not promote the aquarist's skill to combat existing ich infestation in DT. The maintenance of fish in long fallow period of DT will be more problematic to those who know only TT.

 

[igot2gats]

Pro TT is the absence of drug needed to treat against ich.

Against are:

1. TT does not address other diseases.

4. TT is more demanding on the aquarist in terms of work/time spent

I keep coming back to these two thoughts. I think I'll probably won't be doing the TTM.

All that work to prevent Ich. Then, if your fish comes down with something else after you put it into QT, you're dealing with that.

Hats off to the people who do TTM, but I think it's not for me.

 

[HumbleFish]

Just my 2 cents on TTM:

Yes, it is a PITA to have to break down/setup a tank every 3 days. And it's not something you can procrastinate, because the success of TT depends upon moving the fish every 72 hrs and then cleaning/sterilizing the old tank ASAP (in anticipation of the next transfer). However, it's not the same as breaking down a "regular" tank - I can drain my 10 gal TT, setup a new one, transfer the fish and then clean/sterilize the old tank in under an hour so long as I don't get sidetracked. So, for me, it just means getting up an hour earlier on the days I need to do TT.

Catching the fish every 3 days is not a big deal - especially if you use a colander instead of a net. The fish is usually fine and ready to eat again within minutes. I also combine TT with Prazipro treatment, on transfers 2 & 4. So, after 13 days my fish is clear of all the "unseen" diseases.

As far as TT not addressing other diseases... the good news is those diseases will become very apparent if you QT & observe for 1 month following TT. They are not "unseen" like ich & flukes. And as far as ammonia being a problem during TT, go buy yourself a bottle of Amquel or Prime and call it a day.

 

[GroktheCube]

Pro TT is the absence of drug needed to treat against ich.

Against are:

1. TT does not address other diseases.

2. TT interferes with adaptation of the fish; many fish will not eat well after being handled often. Nutrition is compromised.

3. TT does not solve the problem of ammonia as well as slow QT with cycled medium.

4. TT is more demanding on the aquarist in terms of work/time spent

5. skill in TT does not promote the aquarist's skill to combat existing ich infestation in DT. The maintenance of fish in long fallow period of DT will be more problematic to those who know only TT.

A lot of these cons stem from the misconception that TTM is an absolute replacement for QT.

It's not.

It's just the fastest way of eliminating crypto.

You're right that it absolutely requires more labor (during TTM), and does nothing to treat other diseases. However, I personally prefer spending 12 days for guaranteed ich elimination, followed by 4 weeks of observation/deworming vs 4 weeks of copper/CP followed by a transfer into a clean tank followed by another 4-6 weeks of observation.

Ammonia is simply a non-issue with TTM, I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. A small amount of amquel/prime neutralizes whatever small amount of ammonia might be present, and with 70 hours in a given tank, that amount of ammonia is likely to be very small.

That said, to each their own. Prophylactic copper/CP or a 10 week+ observational QT are certainly much easier to auto-pilot through.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"Ammonia is simply a non-issue with TTM, I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. A small amount of amquel/prime neutralizes whatever small amount of ammonia might be present, and with 70 hours in a given tank, that amount of ammonia is likely to be very small."

Are you very certain that you will never need to use a drug that is altered by Amquel or Prime?

Yes, ammonia need not be an issue for TT. Cycle a batch of medium and then use a portion for each tank transfer (and not again for the treatment).

Best is to have the choice between nitrification and Amquel/Prime, but nitrification is often better.

No doubt TT can be useful under some circumstances.

If the bioload is light, the fish are eager feeders, tough and don't get bacterial infection often, TT can be good.

 

[GroktheCube]

"Ammonia is simply a non-issue with TTM, I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. A small amount of amquel/prime neutralizes whatever small amount of ammonia might be present, and with 70 hours in a given tank, that amount of ammonia is likely to be very small."

Are you very certain that you will never need to use a drug that is altered by Amquel or Prime?

Then one would use the normal QT. TTM does not exclude the use of a regular quarantine. The standard procedure is TTM followed by an observational quarantine in a cycled QT to deworm and watch for other ailments. The point of TTM is so that you can cure ich in 12 days, meaning that a much shorter observational period is required.

If fish start showing symptoms of velvet or another disease that requires medication to treat during TTM, obviously you move them into a cycled QT where you can use copper or CP. That said, many people combine praziquantel with TTM without issue.

Just like your UVS setup, if a disease presents that requires medication for treatment, UVS/TTM is discontinued, and one instead does things the "old fashioned" way.

Yes, ammonia need not be an issue for TT. Cycle a batch of medium and then use a portion for each tank transfer (and not again for the treatment).

Best is to have the choice between nitrification and Amquel/Prime, but nitrification is often better.

Why? For small concentrations of ammonia, small concentrations of ammonia neutralizer are adequate. There's absolutely zero need to use a standard biological filter.

That's adding unneeded work, with zero benefit.

You keep bringing up the ammonia thing, so I think perhaps I'm not communicating clearly.

All fish constantly produce ammonia as part of their normal metabolic processes. Normally, one relies on bacteria to convert ammonia into other non-toxic (or dramatically less toxic) nitrogenous compounds. When using TTM, one instead uses prime, which converts ammonia into a form with extremely low toxicity. Prime itself is also non-toxic at reasonable concentrations. Given fish produce a relatively small amount of ammonia, unless one is using a small tank for a large fish, ammonia will not build up to the point where prime/amquel is an inadequate control method within a 72 hour window.

That is why a standard bio-filter is not required for TTM. Ammonia never reaches levels where it cannot be controlled using a few ml of prime.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Then one would use the normal QT. TTM does not exclude the use of a regular quarantine. The standard procedure is TTM followed by an observational quarantine in a cycled QT to deworm and watch for other ailments. The point of TTM is so that you can cure ich in 12 days, meaning that a much shorter observational period is required.

If fish start showing symptoms of velvet or another disease that requires medication to treat during TTM, obviously you move them into a cycled QT where you can use copper or CP. That said, many people combine praziquantel with TTM without issue.

Just like your UVS setup, if a disease presents that requires medication for treatment, UVS/TTM is discontinued, and one instead does things the "old fashioned" way.



Why? For small concentrations of ammonia, small concentrations of ammonia neutralizer are adequate. There's absolutely zero need to use a standard biological filter.

That's adding unneeded work, with zero benefit.

You keep bringing up the ammonia thing, so I think perhaps I'm not communicating clearly.

All fish constantly produce ammonia as part of their normal metabolic processes. Normally, one relies on bacteria to convert ammonia into other non-toxic (or dramatically less toxic) nitrogenous compounds. When using TTM, one instead uses prime, which converts ammonia into a form with extremely low toxicity. Prime itself is also non-toxic at reasonable concentrations. Given fish produce a relatively small amount of ammonia, unless one is using a small tank for a large fish, ammonia will not build up to the point where prime/amquel is an inadequate control method within a 72 hour window.

That is why a standard bio-filter is not required for TTM. Ammonia never reaches levels where it cannot be controlled using a few ml of prime.

Has Amquel or Prime published a list of drugs on which it has not interaction? Why would you rely on either when there is an easy choice? I use them, but only when there is no choice, not by choice.

Why is it not the best for the fish to eat the best the soonest undisturbed? Why is it not the best to have a more comprehensive approach?
Treatment of ich without drug is attractive, but is it enough? I don't think so, not in general.

For many fish, external bacterial infection is a real threat, including during TT when a fish is handled and possibly just slightly damaged and open to invasion. There are many SOS posts on bacterial infection.

Cycling for QT is extremely easy. don't shun it. Do it. When an ich infestation breaks out in DT, the skill to cycle at once would save an aquarist.

I need my UV properly set up in conjunction with the eradication of ich at same time. The UV does vastly reduce waterborne bacteria and virusus. Bacterial infection is reduced by perhaps 70%.

UV has its limitations; it degrades many drugs esp antibiotics to treat bacterial infection. But the aquarist should know the limitation and utility of any piece of equipment.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Has Amquel or Prime published a list of drugs on which it has not interaction? Why would you rely on either when there is an easy choice? I use them, but only when there is no choice, not by choice.

Why is it not the best for the fish to eat the best the soonest undisturbed? Why is it not the best to have a more comprehensive approach?
Treatment of ich without drug is attractive, but is it enough? I don't think so, not in general. Some fish, as I'm sure you aware, are very sensitive to copper. Wrasses, for one, can have problems with copper and CP. How would you treat for ich?

For many fish, external bacterial infection is a real threat, including during TT when a fish is handled and possibly just slightly damaged and open to invasion. There are many SOS posts on bacterial infection.I've been doing TT for 9+ years and have never had a fish get a bacterial infection from it.

Cycling for QT is extremely easy. don't shun it. Do it. When an ich infestation breaks out in DT, the skill to cycle at once would save an aquarist.
If one is properly quarantining livestock why would ich "break out" in a DT?
I need my UV properly set up in conjunction with the eradication of ich at same time. The UV does vastly reduce waterborne bacteria and virusus. Bacterial infection is reduced by perhaps 70%.

UV has its limitations; it degrades many drugs esp antibiotics to treat bacterial infection. But the aquarist should know the limitation and utility of any piece of equipment.

Everyone has their way of quarantining livestock. I'm glad you have found a way that works for you. TT and observation works for me and many others. I, quite frankly, find it less of a pain than having to maintain copper levels for a month.

 

[wooden_reefer]

TT has it usefulness in treating fish that is sensitive to drug against ich, no doubt. That is why I do not discredit its effectiveness and specific purpose.

May be the choice of species has a lot to do with the chance of external bacterial infections. Look at the SOS posts for bacterial infection.

One has to be very confident to swear that there will never be ich outbreak in DT despite all precautions and procedures. Be prepared for the unlikely because otherwise it can be great loss and desperation. I am prepared for at least six months after the introduction of the last livestock; I feed my bacteria for QT for such contigency even thou I have never needed it.