TBS Live Sand

[moses]

Re: Questionable logic?

Re: Questionable logic?

Originally posted by kabboord

Given the complexity and scale of the worlds oceans, and all the biological and chemical reactions going I think it might be a little simplistic to assume because the 'The spots where we do our diggin is only 2 inches deep so thats how the ocean works, yeehaw buy our stuff'.

I guess TBSW is only talking about where they harvest as opposed to rest the of world's oceans. This would be only representative of a carribbean eco-system

I seriously doubt the sandbed accounts for all the nutrient export. I'm pretty sure the chemistry invloved is far more complex. Given the small closed system of a reef tank, and the fact that a reef tank is 3 feet deep at the maximum, and the sandbed where you are drawing the sand from is under ten times the amount of water, receiving different light, currents and completely different systems of energy this logic seems overly simplistic and sophmoric.

But then again every closed system reef tank ever built (even those without TBSW) are probably based on simplistic and sophmoric logic when compared to the reef's natural habitat. That's where this industry stands

The further proof that 'everyone that buys the package says it works; (some how I doubt the ten people who have just started their tanks, who post zealously represent EVERYONE who bought THE PACKAGE) Myself and everyone I know who started their reef tanks was this excited when they originaly started their tank. This simplistic reasoning seems flawed and I don't think I would drop a bunch of money on sand based on this logic.

I have searched Reef Central up, down, left, and right and until your post I really have find nobody say that the TBSW package does not work

1. its so dense compared to other rocks you have to by so much to give the appearance of the other cured rocks it comes out being more expensive.

Ahhh this is true but at 4 bucks a pound its probably a wash on the overall price since the TBSW is less expensive than comparable rock. And so this doesn't turn into a flame, I don't consider Fiji premium to be a comparable rock.

And 2. the whole concept of 'curing' rock which TBS has so zealously disregarded served a very real purpose. The purpose of live rock is coraline alga and its ability to break down amonia etc. and thus work as an effective filter. The theory is to buy live rock for the coraline alga which will spread and filter your tank. The idea was that when you cure it you get ride of everything else (yes even the pretty little sponges) and the mantis shrimp.

Agreed... if you don't know how to take care of something... it will die on you. TBSW's package contains lots of filter feeders. If people are not setup to feed filter feeder then only the eventual starvation and death will result.

My only desire is to offer my input from my experience with my tank. Anyways think hard about your decision, its a lot of money, and fads come and go.

Agreed it is an investment to obtain and then maintain the TBSW package. But if it can be done through proper husbandry of the system, then I believe the package will pay for itself in the form of a unqiue caribbean eco-system.

I hope someone finds my input helpful.

I find your input very helpful and thank you for responding to this post.

Nothing comes without hard work on a reef tank.

Agreed

As far as live sand, thats a lot of money to have a tank cycle quick or whatever their reasoning for live sand is. Heres a secret, before someone started selling sand, when you put a bunch of live rock in a tank, pretty soon your boring old sand, became LIVE SAND. Crazy huh? Another crazy little trick, get a bunch of the boring old regular sand, get maybe a gallon of live sand, put it in, and all those little organisms breed and spread pretty quick and all of a sudden you got a bunch of live sand. And the money you saved on paying to ship 40 lbs of sand, you can spend on something that will really matter, like lights.

Good points well taken and thanks for the "before" and "after" photos. :eek1:

 

[dennisd78418]

Kaboord-

The reasoning that you use makes precisely the same mistake for which you criticize "Live Rock" (TBS). He argued that, in his experience 1-2 inches of sand is enough for denitrification. You responded, in effect, that his experience of conditions in the Gulf is not representative of reef conditions elsewhere, and cannot be generalized. This is a valid argument, and probably correct.

But then you make the same mistake as "Live Rock" when you argue that because most of the life on YOUR TBS rock died, that the same thing will happen to others.

In fact, the overwhelming majority of persons with TBS rock have not had the massive die-off that you experienced (including myself). There is a thread about this very subject on the TBS forum, asking about tanks over one year old. Obviously, there will be some die-off; sponges in particular are likely to die. But what impressed me was how many sponges on my TBS rock lived, and have actually grown larger!

I'm sorry that your experience with TBS rock was not good, but you should know that your experience is apparently atypical.

 

[kabboord]

I wouldn't characterize my experience as bad

I wouldn't characterize my experience as bad

To be honest, I wouldn't characterize my experience as 'bad' Truth of the matter is I live in Tampa, and since its pretty inexpensive compared to other rock, I can go by and pick out my own pieces (no shipping) I like their product. Like I said, I'm doing a custom 150 for my folks house, and I will use their rock. I recently found reef central and have 'taken' tons of helpful information, and the one thing I think I have to give back, and feel most strongly about in 'this crazy oddessy of reefkeeping' that we are all going through is my experience with this live rock.

I responded because this general 'excitement' in this forum, and the interesting notion that 'hey I can just buy a bunch of rocks with coral and all this stuff on it, instead of slowly putting something together' is a pretty progressive idea. Before their rock no experienced reef keeper would DREAM of cycling a tank with rocks that have coral. Its counterintuitive.

The purpose of my post isn't to put down TBSW. The manner wrote it was just to keep it interesting. All in all I think they have a good product at a fair price.

The purpose was however to note the kind of fervor the people were posting with and make sure everyone takes a deep breath and thinks things out, with an eye to reef chemistry. I think all us reefers would agree that in the begining if we had done this more our lives would have been exponentially easier. We all know how excited and pumped and eager we were when we set up our first big tanks, and made our first big commitment of buying live rock. In the rush and excitement of things, (especially when you refer to something as THE PACKAGE! (caps followed by an exclamation point, it only helps to fuel that excitement, rather than encouraging someone to stop and think it through.

How many people, with all the experience they have NOW, think that it is a good idea for someone with little experience (their first real tank) to fill an uncycled tank, with water, and then pack it full or rocks teaming with life. (and yes I agree 100% the rock is chock full of life). When we started reefkeeping we didn't take a 6 month class and then start our tanks. We learned as we went. A lot of stuff lived, and a lot of stuff died, but we learned and now we are much better reef keepers. And thats whats great about reef central, new reefers can learn from older reef keepers, a luxery many of us didn't have.

With regards to 'many people have said the package works'. Of course it will 'work' rock with that much coraline alga will serve its purpose of helping to filter the water. The only thing I encourage people with little practical reef experience is to strongly consider what is likely to happen to all that life without the most dilligent care. It is corals, it is sponges and filter feeders, I don't think us reefkeepers would characterize these as introductory level organisms or even intermediate level. To maintain these you will need lots of suppliments and chemicals, and lots of testing supplies that will require almost day to day monitoring. A positive note, is that most of us grow to love this day to day activity. Just be advised if this is your first real reef tank this is a significant amount of work to put into your tank.

If I were doing it all over again, I would have stripped the rocks down to just the coraline alga, and then put it in the tank. After that I would add a bunch of critters (that I know what they are and what will do) snails, hermits etc. to control an alge. And then slowly add the aqua cultered corals I wanted in there. That way when something goes wrong its much easier to diagnose the problem. One potential problem with having all thos evarious organisms, many you have no idea what they are, is that when something starts dieing or something bad happens, you stand a much better chance at correctly diagnosing and taking corrective actions. The complex nature of marine reef tanks makes diagnosing problems in the most variable controlled tanks tricky at best. I feel when you have a new tank (which everyone agress will have some ups and downs) that is filled with so much variable life and stuff, when problems arise, it is often overwhelming for the begining reefkeeper to deal with.

For anyone fixing to make the huge investment of a reeftank, take the time to by a few books and make sure you understand the whole basic theory of a reef tank, the amonia cycle and whatnot. Then be truthful with your abilities, and think it through. I would say, yes buy the rock, but really consider removing all but the heartiest stuff.

As far as my experience, most of my reefing contemporaries that took up the hobby when I did, had about the same experience with the TBS rock that I did.

One reason that you may not see a lot of posts like mine is that people who did experience what I did, often blame themselves or are embarassed that their rock died off. They don't realize that its not normal for a journyman reefkeeper to not be capable of keeping sponges and filter feeders. I will be the FIRST to say, that a month into my first reef tank, despite plenty of dilligence and research (more than some people put in) I was not qualified to maintain all the life on TBS rock. I think this might be the case for many people.

As far as the guy who says that my experience isn't the norm. According to your profile you've had your tank for 5 months, thats not a long enough test of the stability of a tank, even a year really isn't, to be honest 2 years really isn't either.

In conclusion, I don't dislike TBS. They are businessmen, and I appreciate and am thankful that they are making live rock more affordable. Something that no doubt encourages more people to share this wonderful hobby with us. Also, I think its great they sell live sand. If theres a demand for it and people want it I think thats great. I wish I could sell wet sand for dollars on the pound, if I could I wouldn't be studyin law. With these posts I just hope that I may cause some (that are caught up in this fervor, JUST like I was) to give pause, and stop and study and understand the theory of whats going on in your tank, and what is going to go on as you begin, and think about the impact putting a bunch of rocks teaming with life into that environment, when rocks teaming with ONLY coraline alga may be the more wise choice. The counter argument will be made that all that life furthers to help breakdown and maintain the water quality of the tank. And that is a very valid argument. Thought must be given though that all this life is in a very strict balance and needs a very stable system. Brand new systems are notoriously unstable, and such instability can cause a crash. And its like a bus filled with people hitting a wall as opposed to a motorcycle. The more life involved in the crash the nastier and messier its going to be, and the bigger the cleanup involved. I would say that I 'endorse' TBS rock, look at the most recent picture of my tank, all that rock (and its all TBS) is covered in coraline alga, its a nice looking tank. Just think long and hard about everything, and consider all the variables. Theres a reason the idea of filling a new tank with rocks covered in coral is a 'new' and 'novel' idea. Oh, finally I'm sorry that my spelling is 'rough' at times.

Hoping to help some folks,
Kabboord

 

[greenbean36191]

I guess TBSW is only talking about where they harvest as opposed to rest the of world's oceans. This would be only representative of a carribbean eco-system

Hardly a Carribean eco-system, at most a eutrophic sub-tropical reef.

FWIW my experience was very similar to kabboord's.

 

[moses]

Re: I wouldn't characterize my experience as bad

Re: I wouldn't characterize my experience as bad

As far as the guy who says that my experience isn't the norm. According to your profile you've had your tank for 5 months, thats not a long enough test of the stability of a tank, even a year really isn't, to be honest 2 years really isn't either.

I am curious as to know whether you are referring to me. If so, you are mistaken. :smokin:

 

[kabboord]

no, I would be refering to the guy whos had his tank since November 2004

 

[phil519]

Re: I wouldn't characterize my experience as bad

Re: I wouldn't characterize my experience as bad

Wow I stop checking tbs forum and there's like more words on this thread than there are on several pages of posts in the other forums!

and the one thing I think I have to give back, and feel most strongly about in 'this crazy oddessy of reefkeeping' that we are all going through is my experience with this live rock.

I agree with this statement but I believe directing it only at the TBS forum is disingenuous. Vendor experiences comes to mind.

Before their rock no experienced reef keeper would DREAM of cycling a tank with rocks that have coral. Its counterintuitive.

I'd like to think of myself as rather intuitive. I love constructive criticism - but imo - it's more counterintuitive to buy 100# of rock wrapped in dirty newspaper and having to stew it for days/weeks to get the cycle going.

With regards to 'many people have said the package works'. Of course it will 'work' rock with that much coraline alga will serve its purpose of helping to filter the water.

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying coralline algae helps the nitrogen cycle? If you are - I think you have your facts mixed up. C.Algae actually consumes a little calcium in the tank and for all intensive purposes is pretty to look at. The bacteria necessary to help break down ammonia, nitrite and nitrate exist within the LR - you don't need coralline algae to "filter" the water.

The only thing I encourage people with little practical reef experience is to strongly consider what is likely to happen to all that life without the most dilligent care...Just be advised if this is your first real reef tank this is a significant amount of work to put into your tank.

I believe anyone that goes into a reef tank should expect to put in some work - not just TBS LR owners.

If I were doing it all over again, I would have stripped the rocks down to just the coraline alga, and then put it in the tank.

Go for it! but can you send me the manicina corals. Hate to see you throw those away. Also all those bristle worms would be great, copepods, amphipods too. I'm sure I could draft up a list.

After that I would add a bunch of critters (that I know what they are and what will do) snails, hermits etc. to control an alge.

I know what the clean up crew does. I also know (thanks mainly to greenbean and dr. ron) what all the cool hitchers I have do. I think your point is that if you take the TBS route and get all these good/bad hitchers - make sure you know what they do. A book or RC are great places to find out more about the porcelain crabs, serpent stars, feather dusters and other positive critters that hitched.

And then slowly add the aqua cultered corals I wanted in there. That way when something goes wrong its much easier to diagnose the problem.

If a coral dies - I didn't realize there was a significantly bad impact to the water chemistry of the tank. Softies maybe - but we're not getting softies. TBS LR has manicinas, tube corals, hidden cup corals - I don't see a major ammonia spike if these things start dying. Or do I have my facts messed up...? Sponges on the other hand...peeeeeewwww.

The complex nature of marine reef tanks makes diagnosing problems in the most variable controlled tanks tricky at best. I feel when you have a new tank (which everyone agress will have some ups and downs) that is filled with so much variable life and stuff, when problems arise, it is often overwhelming for the begining reefkeeper to deal with.For anyone fixing to make the huge investment of a reeftank, take the time to by a few books and make sure you understand the whole basic theory of a reef tank, the amonia cycle and whatnot.

I believe anyone that goes into a reef tank should expect to put in some work - not just TBS LR owners.

As far as my experience, most of my reefing contemporaries that took up the hobby when I did, had about the same experience with the TBS rock that I did.

The more I read about your experience, the more I wonder what you actually did in the "first" month...if only to learn from it.

I will be the FIRST to say, that a month into my first reef tank, despite plenty of dilligence and research (more than some people put in) I was not qualified to maintain all the life on TBS rock. I think this might be the case for many people.

I'm sorry to hear that - but I've read dwculp's, wooglin's, h20lovesme's thread and several others here - including patsan who shares many times her being a novice - and the experience they have had is nowhere near the "impossibility" you depict it to be. It sounds like to me there are other contributing factors to your experience. I believe this is what Dennis was referring to as your experience being "atypical".

As far as the guy who says that my experience isn't the norm. According to your profile you've had your tank for 5 months, thats not a long enough test of the stability of a tank, even a year really isn't, to be honest 2 years really isn't either.

See above

In conclusion, I don't dislike TBS. They are businessmen, and I appreciate and am thankful that they are making live rock more affordable.

That's your opinion. I personally do not find them as affordable - but competitive. I also don't consider mary, mark or richard are simply "businessmen", I tend to believe they are making strides in an area (aquaculture) that others should follow.

With these posts I just hope that I may cause some (that are caught up in this fervor, JUST like I was) to give pause, and stop and study and understand the theory of whats going on in your tank, and what is going to go on as you begin, and think about the impact putting a bunch of rocks teaming with life into that environment, when rocks teaming with ONLY coraline alga may be the more wise choice.

I'm sorry you were caught up in a fervor and made the decision to purchase and now regret it. I cannot speak for others here, but I did research and was independently informed of TBS by a client/colleague of mine way back in 1997. I didn't find RC until after I made the purchase.

Oh - I would never dose magnesium, stronium or the other trace elements you mentioned. I based my decision on this article:

Water Parameters, by RHF

EDIT: That being all said, I do respect greenbean's opinion and the fact that he didn't care for all the life on the TBS rock. As he shared long ago with me - it's not for everyone and I agree.

 

[dennisd78418]

Quote-

As far as the guy who says that my experience isn't the norm. According to your profile you've had your tank for 5 months, thats not a long enough test of the stability of a tank, even a year really isn't, to be honest 2 years really isn't either.
_________________________________________________

Kaboord- Apparently, this refers to me. If you will go back and read my post carefully you will see that I based my comments primarily on the experiences of others that I have read about on RC. I specifically referred to a thread about this very subject on the TBS forum. I agree that my own 5 months experience w/ TBS rock may not reflect long-term success. Since you feel that even 2 years without problems is inadequate evidence of success, I wonder what evidence you would accept?

In any case, I will say that up to this point in my limited experience I have experienced nothing to indicate impending doom. Early on some sponges died, and hair algae began to be a problem before I added a cleaning crew. Now there is no visible "bad" algae, and the coraline algae is spreading all over my base rock, the manacina, cup, tube, and finger corals have all grown visibly. The star coral appears healthy but has not grown larger. The sponges that remain have grown and have good color. The many bivalves are hanging in there (hard to tell if they're "happy" or not!).

It is not necessary, in my opinon, to use a lot of additives as you suggest (at least not for the live rock and hitchhikers- perhaps as I add additional corals additional calcium, etc. will be needed). The only thing I add (beyond food, and water changes) is live phytoplankton. I started doing this out of concern that the sponges, bivalves and Christmas tree worms would die without it. I bought one bottle of DT's, and used it to culture my own. I don't know if it's doing any good, but it isn't hurting!

Nor is it necessary to test for anything beyond the basic four (ph, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). I no longer worry about salinity because I use NSW. Although the salinity of the NSW varies slightly from batch to batch, it is always well within the safe range.

Anyway, I agree that a newbie who hasn't prepared properly will have quite a challenge keeping the life on TBS rock alive. But apparently many new-comers are successful with TBS rock, as evidenced by the posts on RC. One may speculate, as you have, that the unsuccessful ones don't post on the RC forums, but such speculation is of little value since it cannot be substantiated.

 

[moses]

Nor is it necessary to test for anything beyond the basic four (ph, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).

After your tank has been established you can probably stop testing for Ammonia, nitrite, and possibly Nitrate, as long as you observe that your animals are in good health.

I would however begin testing for calcium and hardness on a periodic basis as well as montior ph daily. :rollface:

 

[dennisd78418]

Agreed. I currently only test for nitrate and pH, usually once per week before I do a water change.

 

[H2OLUVSME]

Nor is it necessary to test for anything beyond the basic four (ph, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). I no longer worry about salinity because I use NSW. Although the salinity of the NSW varies slightly from batch to batch, it is always well within the safe range.

do you use the NSW that comes in a jug or do you use real NSW?

 

[kabboord]

I would strongly disagree about not testing calcium, alkalinity... every now and then I would recomend testing magnesium depending on what salt you use. Of course if you use NSW testing isn't going to be that necesarry. I had a question about NSW perhaps you might help me. I live in St. Pete right, and grew up in Cocoa Beach. Everytime I've ever asked around the LFS they've always said not to use NSW citing pollution. I've often theorized this might have more to do with them retailing salt and additives than such a concern.
I ask for several reasons.
One I live in a nasty *** massive industrialized three county pit of urban sprawl known as pinellas-hillsborough county. I can only imagine the amount of runoff and pollutants anywhere within about a mile of the shore, this would preclude collection, near shore. So my first question is, given access to a boat, how far off is safe? Another question, Cocoa Beach is far less populous, could collection be done from the surf?

I'd like to hear some opinions of people with experience in this department who doesn't sell salt and additives for their livelyhood. Regardless it seems like too much of a gamble and I doubt I'll ever do it (I enjoy the control and comfort of salt mixes).

Thanks

 

[dennisd78418]

Quote-

do you use the NSW that comes in a jug or do you use real NSW?
____________________________________________________

I use the real thing. I collect it from shore (I don't have a boat) and I store it for two weeks in the dark to allow the plankton to die off. Some people use it straight, but I have been too nervous about the possibility of "bad" planktonic organisims to use it "straight."

Quote-

Another question, Cocoa Beach is far less populous, could collection be done from the surf?
_________________________________________________

I collect from shore, and I've not had any problems so far. I live on Padre Island and collect from just outside the National Seashore (60 something miles of undeveloped shoreline). But to the North is developed land. I think if you can find an area with no obvious local sources of pollution, and it has good tidal flow (i.e., flushing action) you should be fine. Paul B on this list has been doing this for 30 years just outside Manhattan, and has had no problems. On the other hand, you never know . . .!

 

[H2OLUVSME]

kabbord, i much prefer the control of the salt mixes also. i read (in a moe book i believe) that the NSW must be collected from 30+ miles away from any city. also there is a process you must go through with it that treats it. the treatment uses bleach and some other chemicals that neutralize the bleach. i do know people from around here that have collected sand and make regular trips to the beach for SW. they don't do any sort of treatment to the water and seem to have decent running tanks. both of the guys i know do this have a worse trouble than i with algae blooms. i imagine this has some to do with the nutrients in the water they are collecting as they both do way more gallonage of water changes than i (and have smaller systems).

 

[dennisd78418]

The Martin Moe book was where I read about the procedure for collecting and storing the NSW in the dark to allow for die-off of plankton. He describes the chlorine procedure, and says he uses it for treating NSW he uses for raising fish fry, but he stops short of recommending using chlorine to treat water used in reef tanks because he didn't have experience with it.

 

[H2OLUVSME]

cool Dennis i havent read that book in a looooong time. i guess i didnt remember everyhting from it thanks for the ehads up. i may try some NSW from the beach here if thats all it takes.

is there anything else you do to prepare it?

 

[dennisd78418]

Here's what I do: I setup four 25 gal. trash cans to store the water, double lined with heavy duty trash bags (I use two bags per can because I found one bag will sometimes leak).

I gather each load of water in five 5 gal. buckets. I use a 6th bucket as a dipper and pour the water into a second bucket through a filter. The filter is made from one layer of fine plastic window screen and one layer of weed barrier cloth (the cloth made to put under mulch in the garden; it allows water through but keeps weeds out). The filter will catch some of the larger plankton and sand grains. The water is then poured into the trash cans and the bags twist-tied. At this stage, the water is usually pretty cloudy with silt and plankton.

The water is stored in the dark for 2 weeks or more (more won't hurt, my first batch ended up being stored for several months!). During that time the plankton will die and be consumed by bacteria.

When you open the bags, you will find the water is clear and there will be a thin layer of light colored floculent material on the bottom. The sediment is silt and the oxydized remains of the plankton. Collect the water for transfer to the aquarium, but try not to disturb the sediment. It is not harmful, but will cloud the water if you stir it up. That's pretty much it.

 

[H2OLUVSME]

wow do you have an pics of your tank? id like to see what the end result is. im very interested in this and i believe im going to try this out this summer.

 

[dennisd78418]

Sorry- I don't have a digital camera. My wife does, but she won't let me play with it! (The camera I mean).

 

[H2OLUVSME]

:lol: