Testing of a sequence 3200 needle wheel

[dgasmd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7497466#post7497466 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
well i hate to say it but the defuser should be top priority for that skimmer. that should be the very first thing you add to it before you do anything else. the reason is that the bubbles will be sucked into the pump in large amounts. i think this is the reason you need to bleed off some of the air from your air pump.

You may be right. However, I think you need to remember that the amount of air I am processing is gargantuous to begin with for single pump and may be just a little too much for the pump altogether. I guess the way to find out is to do the diffuser plate and see what happens. Even the amount of air I am actually bleeding is so tiny that it is amazing it would make the skimmer hit the too much mark if it was fed 100%. It simply blows my mind as to how fine of a line that is. You put your finger wet in front of the air bleed valve and you can barely feel it coming out. Yet if you close it allt he way it is like flipping a switch to make a volcano erupt.

Also, as I said before. I think it is very deceptive from the pictures where the bottom of the bubble column actually sits in the skimmer's box. I could simply put an elbow at the recirculating pump's intake to make it suck the water from about the bottom 1" of the box too and direct the feed line in another direction.

One thing that will always limit me here in the design of the skimmer is the fact that this was a retro fit to an existing skimmer, so I have some limitations. I did not drill main chamber but rather the box as it was easier to work with a flat surface. So, the outlet of the NW pump shoots right below the main chamber instead of in the middle of it.

I do see your point though.

 

[Travis]

Alberto, I didn't get any pics of the NW and actually didn't really spend much time looking at the wheel itself. I was too much in awe at what it was producing in the 20 gallon tank it was hooked up to. From what I remember, all of the pins are the same size and height and appeared to be pretty much evenly spaced between each other. They were made out of a clear-ish plastic.

 

[ctenophore]

I just wanted to chime in here and hopefully clear up some confusion regarding the Sequence needlewheels.

The display at IMAC was a first generation impeller. It was built in June 05.

Alberto currently has a 4th gen impeller in the Dart I sent him. It is significantly different from the first gen version, and was built using a rapid prototyping process called selective laser sintering.

I have a 5th generation impeller sitting in SolidWorks right now waiting to get prototyped.

The availability date is based on the manufacturing process we decide to go with. The tradeoff is between the permanence and initial cost of injection molding versus the flexibility but higher per-unit cost of machining. The problem with niche projects such as these is that the technology can evolve so rapidly that it may not make sense to commit to injection mold tooling for a run of maybe a few hundred parts before the mold is obsolete.

The version Alberto has is not (easily) machinable but seems to perform well and is easily injection molded. The latest version is both machinable and moldable, but has been designed for machining.

The versions I've seen on Spazz's thread are very similar to our first gen impeller, and are not easily mass produced except by mold.

I think any of the designs will work pretty well given proper skimmer design and air input. The big question is the production process and economy of scale on a niche part.

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7499426#post7499426 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophore
I just wanted to chime in here and hopefully clear up some confusion regarding the Sequence needlewheels.

The display at IMAC was a first generation impeller. It was built in June 05.

Alberto currently has a 4th gen impeller in the Dart I sent him. It is significantly different from the first gen version, and was built using a rapid prototyping process called selective laser sintering.

I have a 5th generation impeller sitting in SolidWorks right now waiting to get prototyped.

The availability date is based on the manufacturing process we decide to go with. The tradeoff is between the permanence and initial cost of injection molding versus the flexibility but higher per-unit cost of machining. The problem with niche projects such as these is that the technology can evolve so rapidly that it may not make sense to commit to injection mold tooling for a run of maybe a few hundred parts before the mold is obsolete.

The version Alberto has is not (easily) machinable but seems to perform well and is easily injection molded. The latest version is both machinable and moldable, but has been designed for machining.

The versions I've seen on Spazz's thread are very similar to our first gen impeller, and are not easily mass produced except by mold.

I think any of the designs will work pretty well given proper skimmer design and air input. The big question is the production process and economy of scale on a niche part.

this is and always will be the problem in a nut shell. there are better ways to build things but the designs cant be injection molded because of design or run sizes.

 

[cward]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7495358#post7495358 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace
Well lets all hope that sequence makes the dart with the needle wheel already in there. Then more folks will likely take on this project.

The problem with the Dart needle wheel is that it can only take 12" or so of head pressure before it dies. This isn't a problem if you build a short fat skimmer like the BK, but for anything taller you have to use an air pump to assist the Dart. Hopefully someone will come out with a better external needle wheel pump that you can run without an air pump.

Nice skimmer!!!

 

[dgasmd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7500658#post7500658 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cward
The problem with the Dart needle wheel is that it can only take 12" or so of head pressure before it dies. This isn't a problem if you build a short fat skimmer like the BK, but for anything taller you have to use an air pump to assist the Dart. Hopefully someone will come out with a better external needle wheel pump that you can run without an air pump.

Nice skimmer!!!

I used to think this was an issue too, but after you put cost and performance together you realize you are well under 1/3 of the initial cost of a comparable "brand skimmer" like BK or Deltec, under 1/2 of the electric use for the air and water processing capacity, and well over equal to multiple times performance. How can you really argue with that?? Production wise, I think there won't be much of an issue as there are only so few people around the country willing to go custom like this, willing to work with the designs and manufacturers, and willing to cough up the moolah too.

Pretty exciting stuff........................

 

[Horace]

I think at this point there is no getting around using an air pump if you want a tall skimmer.....Even with an air pump its still going to be more efficent than any other type of skimmer of equal size from the sounds of it. Im even considering running an airpump with my 25" tall skimmer just so head pressure isnt reducing the air at all....

My buddy just built a dual OR 3700 skimmer on 10" diamter skimmer. The body is about 30" tall + a 4" tall cone. The air suction IMO was SEVERELY reduced because of the head pressure. Im not sure exactly what it was pulling but I would be suprised if it was more than 10 SCFH per pump. I will say the bubbles were SUPER fine and it did make a nice foam head as it is, but I think it could be ALOT better if he used an airpump and also got an SCFH meter to tune the venturis with.

 

[cward]

I'm not against using an air pump to assist a needle wheel pump, but I think it would be nice if someone made a pump that would do it on it's own. Oh, and at a reasonable price

 

[Horace]

I think the problem is that the needle wheels wont create enough suction because of the style of impeller. Regardless of the design is, it will always suck less air when you have head pressure on it than without so you could still benefit from using an air pump. The question is weather or not its needed or not.

 

[cward]

Yes, I understand that. It's just kind of funny that pumps like the Gen-X 4100 or Sedra 9000 can take more head pressure than a Dart without the need of an air pump. I know that they can't produce near the same lpm of air that the Dart can, but there has to be a pump out there that can do the job. I wonder if the Dart volute on a higher rpm motor would work. Maybe Sequence should try this before they put out a needle wheel pump for the skimmer market.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread dgasmd.

 

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7500658#post7500658 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cward
The problem with the Dart needle wheel is that it can only take 12" or so of head pressure before it dies. This isn't a problem if you build a short fat skimmer like the BK, but for anything taller you have to use an air pump to assist the Dart. Hopefully someone will come out with a better external needle wheel pump that you can run without an air pump.

Nice skimmer!!!

your still missing the entire point of this. its better to use the air pump because its way more effecient to pump air into a skimmer than it is to try and suck air using a venturi. the air pump decreases the total wattage draws of the skimmer and allows you to have a lot taller skimmer with no major air restrictions.
there is no need to reinvent the needle wheel. it works great just the way it is. this design will beat any other design on the market today. that includes the bubble kings. they will never be able to suck enough air to compete with this concept. with all the testing i have done this is the one thing i can put my money on. its a winner in its design. you may not like the fact you need the air pump but its just the way it has to be. adn its still alot cheaper than a red dragon pump.

 

[ctenophore]

Spazz is right, the price/performance ratio is far better than that of any other skimmer pump. When you see what one Dart needlewheel can do, you won't hesitate to plug in two devices rather than one.

 

[dgasmd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7505827#post7505827 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
your still missing the entire point of this. its better to use the air pump because its way more effecient to pump air into a skimmer than it is to try and suck air using a venturi. the air pump decreases the total wattage draws of the skimmer and allows you to have a lot taller skimmer with no major air restrictions.

That is no joke! My current pump went from 140 watt with just water coming in to 57 watt when I opened the air to it. Now, I really wished I had a flowmeter to attach to the air outlet of the skimmer to see how much I am processing through it. Does anyone, and even better, compare later on when I test the Dart new needle wheel.

Does anyone know where I can buy one that will just plug into a 1/2" ID hose or 1/2" PVC?? I know some people have been using some from Dwyer, but a link to a specific one would be nice.

 

[Beenalongtime79]

Air pump + Low RPM, fat needle Wheel pumps = mad amounts of bubbles and super efficiency!

 

[Bill Wann]

AllI have to say about these things is that my electic bill went down 175 dollars from running the rk2 to running th edual dart needle wheel setup. It kinda pays for itself and works better . What other skimmer earns its own keep.

 

[bond007069]

http://dwyerinstruments.com/htdocs/flow/SeriesRMPrice.cfm#CRA

use Stainless steel Version

pick your size, i use two inch

these are for 1/4 inch line inputs

10-100 schf/air

 

[Bill Wann]

dgasmd
I would not use on of those types of flow meters , They are too restrictive for the low pressure airflow and they have way too much backpressure . I tried it and it didnt work . I use a george fischer rotameter . works great .

 

[dgasmd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7508908#post7508908 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bill Wann
dgasmd
I would not use on of those types of flow meters , They are too restrictive for the low pressure airflow and they have way too much backpressure . I tried it and it didnt work . I use a george fischer rotameter . works great .

Thanks for the heads up Bill. That is the kind of info I was looking for. Do you have a link to one of those?? What kind of flow rates are you getting with your skimmer right now?

UPDATE

Well, the skimmer has been running untouched for one week. The skimmate coming out is light-dark tea colored due to me running it a tiny on the wetter end. The wet neck on a timer coming on every 6 hours has worked out great as it keeps the collection cup pretty clean by giving it a "flush" 4 times per day. I have been getting about 2.5g of skimmate daily, which is just about 2.5g more than what I was getting before with the air stones, only PER MONTH!!! I plan to adjust the skimmer today to make it a tiny bit dryer and maybe darken up the skimmate some more. I am also making the plumbing to swap the pump for the Sequence Dart with the Sequence needle wheel to test it for 2 weeks. I am very curious as to the performance of this wheel given that the design of it is pretty different from the one Bill, spazz, and I are currently using.

I also need to make some drawings of how to adapt a diffuser plate to the bottom of the skimmer and see if I can improve the performance some more beyond what I can only describe as phenomenal so far. The cone neck should be installed in a couple of weeks too.

A couple of pictures to follow tomorrow.

 

[biggt 2k1]

Wow that is a result! I wonder how much of a difference that the bubble diffuser and slope neck transition will make. I wonder if mojo can be convinced that the NW's are worth trying out again?

 

[RandyStacyE]

dgasmd,

I've been following this thread, but I didn't see any pics of the actual NW. Do you have any pics handy?