CDGreenEyes
New member
Thanks Porky!
The Elegance Coral Project
- Thread starter EricHugo
- Start date
CDGreenEyes
New member
Eric,
I am ordering some tranship elegance to see if bypassing the wholesaler & retailer helps any. I'll let you know when (If) I get any.
I am ordering some tranship elegance to see if bypassing the wholesaler & retailer helps any. I'll let you know when (If) I get any.
Greg - what was your protocol? I am leaving for Belize in about 24 hours, so may not have time to continue the discussion. All my AB treatments died as well except the ones I fixed and got to the IRCP before they croaked. They were bare skeletons over the three days I was at MACNA - glad I took some for the study before they all died.
I looked closely at three sections of the first two corals in the study today. There was a conistent invasion and attachment of many fungal filaments in all sections of both corals...one was a very sweet area where the cut came across a mesentery (thick with zoox) and it was jsut a mass of celll debris, the zoox and the filaments. Also an area along a section of endodermal tissue where the plasma membrane was gone and zoox were spilling out, all invaded by filaments but the overlying ectoderm was completely intact and healthy looking. But, there were also some surface epithelial layers that had a lot of unusual acidophilic spots that may be bacteria - much more localized though and not throughout the sample. Also, found three of what look to be cross sections of ciliates with cells and zoox inside them - this could be part of the opportunistic clean up crew you see with brown jelly, though, as the tissue was dying. Looking forward to seeing the next 50 or so. Have not looked at the alcian blue/PAS stains for carbohydrates, but as Kathy said, this won't do much good till we see the distribution of carbs/mucin/glycogen etc in a healthy specimen.
Eric
I looked closely at three sections of the first two corals in the study today. There was a conistent invasion and attachment of many fungal filaments in all sections of both corals...one was a very sweet area where the cut came across a mesentery (thick with zoox) and it was jsut a mass of celll debris, the zoox and the filaments. Also an area along a section of endodermal tissue where the plasma membrane was gone and zoox were spilling out, all invaded by filaments but the overlying ectoderm was completely intact and healthy looking. But, there were also some surface epithelial layers that had a lot of unusual acidophilic spots that may be bacteria - much more localized though and not throughout the sample. Also, found three of what look to be cross sections of ciliates with cells and zoox inside them - this could be part of the opportunistic clean up crew you see with brown jelly, though, as the tissue was dying. Looking forward to seeing the next 50 or so. Have not looked at the alcian blue/PAS stains for carbohydrates, but as Kathy said, this won't do much good till we see the distribution of carbs/mucin/glycogen etc in a healthy specimen.
Eric
CDGreenEyes
New member
Eric,
Have you been able to determine a direction of growth (of the fungal filaments) from the samples so far? Sounds like the filaments may be migrating up through the skeletal structures? I wonder if injecting antifungal agents into the skeleton just below the tissue would help?
Have you been able to determine a direction of growth (of the fungal filaments) from the samples so far? Sounds like the filaments may be migrating up through the skeletal structures? I wonder if injecting antifungal agents into the skeleton just below the tissue would help?
No question that if (and I do mean IF) these are the causative agents (because you could have fungal invasion following a viral, bacterial or stress related issue, or multiple causes) they are definitely coming from the skeleton. These corals are buried in muck (used to not be early on when they were more common on reef structure or on coral sands), and upon dissolution of the skeleton, there is a TON of sponge and algae in the skeleton - more than any corals I have decalficifed and the skelton is very porous. Also, isolation of those white plaques I have shown when the project began and I had decalcified the first five or so specimens are on the underside, inside the tissue, and I did a smear of those and gram stained it and found branching gram positive filaments and debris. The microbiologist downstairs thought they were actinomycetes and I sent them to Scripps to a guy who did sequence homology on marine actinomycetes (recently discovered) and he said they were not those, they were fungal filaments.
No - stop right there. I have looked at two samples of neary 60, I see fungal filaments causing damage in 2 of the 60, and see other critters, might be more critters in the other slides, have not done gram stains, do not have a reference healthy coral, and have not done Koch's psotulates.
But, IF and only IF, the filaments are the main etiological agent, then we will need a fungicide that works and that doesn't kill the coral.
Basically, at this point, it means nothing for the aquarist right now unless, as I suggested above, people wanted to engage in careful systematic exploration of various treatment protocols if they have a sick elegance and reprort back on the results. As Greg and I have suggested, antibiotics and Lugol's have not worked well on the ones we have tried them on - but that, too, could be an artifact of dosage amount, exposure time, and the effectiveness against the agent. SO, if I were an aquarist with a sick elegance, I would start looking at low dose long term treatment using a fungicide of low toxicicity that could eventually get into the skeleton, even if by drilling a small hole and injecting it into the skeleton and then sealing the hole with epoxy to obtain some higher local concentrations while minimizing contact with tissue.
But, IF and only IF, the filaments are the main etiological agent, then we will need a fungicide that works and that doesn't kill the coral.
Basically, at this point, it means nothing for the aquarist right now unless, as I suggested above, people wanted to engage in careful systematic exploration of various treatment protocols if they have a sick elegance and reprort back on the results. As Greg and I have suggested, antibiotics and Lugol's have not worked well on the ones we have tried them on - but that, too, could be an artifact of dosage amount, exposure time, and the effectiveness against the agent. SO, if I were an aquarist with a sick elegance, I would start looking at low dose long term treatment using a fungicide of low toxicicity that could eventually get into the skeleton, even if by drilling a small hole and injecting it into the skeleton and then sealing the hole with epoxy to obtain some higher local concentrations while minimizing contact with tissue.
Herpervet
New member
Obviously its WAY early to say much but to throw out a couple of ideas.
First, if you are looking for sustained local release of the drug then a novel mode of therapy that has been used in Veterinary medicine is formulating the drug in polymethylmethacrylate aka "bone cement".
The drug must be heat stable since the methylmetacrlate heats when it is curing.
The methymethacrlyate/antimicrobial mixture is formed into small pellets and implanted (after curing) into infected sites for sustained release of the drug. This has been proven to work and provide long term local drug levels.
I do not know if anyone has used this mode of delivery for antifungal agents however. I
It would be advisable to implant the beads in such a way to facilitate ease of removal after an appropriate length of treatment.
One other thought: It might be very difficult to identify or culture the agent in question and sequencing from the parrafin embedded blocks might be the best way to get an i.d. ( I think I mentioned this awhile back).
Another concern: If the skeletal matrix of these corals are riddled with various organisms including sponges, it seems plausable that death of said organisms might be a potential complicating factor either from bacterial or fungal overgrowth or toxin release.
This would certainly complicate any treatment efforts since any drug toxic to these (commensal?) organisms may only make a bad situation worse.
cheers,
Pete
First, if you are looking for sustained local release of the drug then a novel mode of therapy that has been used in Veterinary medicine is formulating the drug in polymethylmethacrylate aka "bone cement".
The drug must be heat stable since the methylmetacrlate heats when it is curing.
The methymethacrlyate/antimicrobial mixture is formed into small pellets and implanted (after curing) into infected sites for sustained release of the drug. This has been proven to work and provide long term local drug levels.
I do not know if anyone has used this mode of delivery for antifungal agents however. I
It would be advisable to implant the beads in such a way to facilitate ease of removal after an appropriate length of treatment.
One other thought: It might be very difficult to identify or culture the agent in question and sequencing from the parrafin embedded blocks might be the best way to get an i.d. ( I think I mentioned this awhile back).
Another concern: If the skeletal matrix of these corals are riddled with various organisms including sponges, it seems plausable that death of said organisms might be a potential complicating factor either from bacterial or fungal overgrowth or toxin release.
This would certainly complicate any treatment efforts since any drug toxic to these (commensal?) organisms may only make a bad situation worse.
cheers,
Pete
poopsko24
New member
Eric, most every elegance that I have bought has had the spone growth around the base. Also tube worms. There is no mistake where on a reef these corals come from when we can see the sponge growth on the skeletons like this. We know what type of enviroment the sponges grow in.... I would like to add that i bought an elegence back in April and it was said to have been in the previous owners tank for like 8 months. I'm pretty sure I can believe them. It was healthy and full looking, very large cone shaped. I put it in my tank and look good till the 3 week mark. Then it got the sort tentacle symptons. I had heard about the furan-2 treatment. Well i put him in a 10 gallon, w/ the stock light strip, but I had a 10K bulb in that light fixture. A heater was also in that tank. Well I 1st dosed with doxycycline .....over did it too. Well the coral did not look better, looked a little worse, bleached. I did water change next day, then started w/ half the dose of the furan-2 treatment. I did these treatments for probley like a week with some daily or every other day water changes. Coral did not look any better. But that was probley back in May, and you know what??? That coral is still alive and still in the 10 gallon !!! Its tentecles are still short, but its opened up alot (probley lack of light) It has still not color to it also, but just the slightest green hue to the tips. A red slimey , bubble algae,(one I have never seen) has grown alot in this tank. Probley lack of matinance and flow. Forgot to mention that i have olny a very small powerhead in there for flow. But this coral is still kickin !! Not healthy looking, but its not going anywhere though.... I've tried to feed it sometimes cyclop ezz , i think it took it. Cant believe he's still with me , even with so to say some neglect. I'll try to get some pics to you, but I'm not really good at finding out how to resize them....
sihaya
In Memoriam
rofl Not sure how this will help your elegance.poopsko24 said:I'll do whatever Eric wants me to do with him, I'm open here.
But I have a question... if you drill a whole into the skeleton to get fungicide in there, are you plugging up the hole to keep the fungicide in? Or to help the coral heal? Because if you plugged it up, how would you do subsequence treatments?
sihaya
In Memoriam
Could you implant a sponge of some sort instead? Then cap it with epoxy with a small hole big enough for a needle to re-inject the fungicide if need be?
Anyway... I don't have one of these corals. SO I don't know why I'm thinking about this. It's an interesting problem I guess.
Anyway... I don't have one of these corals. SO I don't know why I'm thinking about this. It's an interesting problem I guess.
Herpervet
New member
sihaya said:
Implanting a sponge would be problematic as it is too porous and would serve as a nidus for infection. i.e. bacterial colonization.
Now you could drill a hole and implant a plastic injection port to give multiple injections into the skeletal structure as needed. Seal the port with epoxy or bone cement.
You could also do the same thing directly into the polyp if using a 37 to 30g needle the trauma would be minimal.
Herpervet
New member
sihaya said:
Doubtful it would fix anything and "Above all else do not harm your patient"
If someone wants to donate a healthy elegance I can staple off a large section of polyp using a TA 90 stapling device. This stapler is used in lung surgeries to staple off a portion of lung for removal. It provides a very nice seal. It shoots a double row of overlaping staples.
Now what would happen next is anyones guess but I bet it wouldn't be good.
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