The stars align - False Percs finally lay again!
- Thread starter jbrinker
- Start date
I have a TON of rots. I think I will just keep them loaded up on those until the otohime gets here. Maybe I'll hatch some BBS - haven't tried that yet. I read how to decap the cysts, maybe if I have time I will give this a whirl tonight. They are on day 4 now.
I was just about to call Reed to confirm my order and give my CC no. I was going to order A, B1 and B2. But then got thinking that I could maybe go A, B2, C1? I guess my goal would be to NOT have to use BBS except as a supliment, and have enough to get them to the point where I can feed regular food (frozen mix, crushed Thera, etc).
I was just about to call Reed to confirm my order and give my CC no. I was going to order A, B1 and B2. But then got thinking that I could maybe go A, B2, C1? I guess my goal would be to NOT have to use BBS except as a supliment, and have enough to get them to the point where I can feed regular food (frozen mix, crushed Thera, etc).
Well, I decapsulated and hatched some brine. Had a little problem though, as the water was too cold I think, and they took over 24h to hatch.
Once hatched, I just scooped some up and dribbled them into the bowl. I hope that was OK.
Is there a concern with brine that feeding them once they are too large is bad for the fry? Or does it really not matter much?
I will hatch some more tonight, and see if I can keep the water temp a little warmer. Basement is just too cool - probably 63F.
Jeff
Once hatched, I just scooped some up and dribbled them into the bowl. I hope that was OK.
Is there a concern with brine that feeding them once they are too large is bad for the fry? Or does it really not matter much?
I will hatch some more tonight, and see if I can keep the water temp a little warmer. Basement is just too cool - probably 63F.
Jeff
How fast do they get "too big"? Here's why I ask...
I lost 4 yesterday. I had not lost any for days. Only difference was I fed some of the newly hatched brine (Less than 24h post hatch).
I did pour the brine and their water into the bowl. About a cup all together. Next morning, 2 dead. Later that afternoon 2 more dead.
So I then decided to do a rather large water change, and siphoned out the dead and about 30% of the water. I dripped in new water from the main tank over about an hour. No more deaths since.
The dead had nice full stomachs. They were healthy and feeding just hours before death. Lots of rotifers and now small brine shrimp in the bowl. (Enough that they have no problem catching them, not so many to choke the bowl)
The fry water smells fine. Looks greenish like it should. I add just enough nano each day to keep it tinted. I change about 10% a day usually. I clean the bottom every day, sometimes twice. Ammonia has been 0 since day 2.
I just wonder what killed those 4 - thats almost 50% of what I had left...
Is it OK to just leave the brine shrimp in the bowl and let them grow? There are a few thousand in there. They seem to all hang in a cloud together.
On another note, last night the mated pair ate about 25% of their eggs. One whole corner of the nest. I fed extra heavy this am, but am not sure why they would do that...
I lost 4 yesterday. I had not lost any for days. Only difference was I fed some of the newly hatched brine (Less than 24h post hatch).
I did pour the brine and their water into the bowl. About a cup all together. Next morning, 2 dead. Later that afternoon 2 more dead.
So I then decided to do a rather large water change, and siphoned out the dead and about 30% of the water. I dripped in new water from the main tank over about an hour. No more deaths since.
The dead had nice full stomachs. They were healthy and feeding just hours before death. Lots of rotifers and now small brine shrimp in the bowl. (Enough that they have no problem catching them, not so many to choke the bowl)
The fry water smells fine. Looks greenish like it should. I add just enough nano each day to keep it tinted. I change about 10% a day usually. I clean the bottom every day, sometimes twice. Ammonia has been 0 since day 2.
I just wonder what killed those 4 - thats almost 50% of what I had left...
Is it OK to just leave the brine shrimp in the bowl and let them grow? There are a few thousand in there. They seem to all hang in a cloud together.
On another note, last night the mated pair ate about 25% of their eggs. One whole corner of the nest. I fed extra heavy this am, but am not sure why they would do that...
Update: Sad news..
Update: Sad news..
Well, things were going SOOO well until last night...
I had 4 make it through Meta, they were little clowns. Complete with head stripe and clown-antics. All 4 were hosting on the heater, swimming around, and generally acting fine.
I decided that, since I have another batch of eggs ready - and I need to be able to make the room pitch dark for hatch out tonight - that I would subject the babies to a "dim period" overnight. I shut off the overhead light over their tank, leaving only the light from the nano cultures. It was "dim" for sure but not dark.
All 4 of the baby clowns died. I found them all crammed into the ridge at the bottom of the fish bowl, where the crud all collects.
This was the first time the lights had gone off since hatch. I suspect that what happened was they became confused, and swam down into the corner, and downed/suffocated. I have no other plausable explanation - they were all doing so well, hunting, and growing rapidly.
For this next batch, I will keep the light on 24/7 again, and when I do move them from the fishbowl, I will maintain an overhead "moon light" even at night for at least the first couple months.
Anyone had similar experiences? There was virtually no circulation last night, I had the bubbles at the lowest level. Just 1 every 5-10 seconds. (Maybe I should have kept it high?)
This is so frustrating. Makes me sad, and mad all at the same time. Almost want to not bother with this next nest, but I will anyway
J
Update: Sad news..
Well, things were going SOOO well until last night...
I had 4 make it through Meta, they were little clowns. Complete with head stripe and clown-antics. All 4 were hosting on the heater, swimming around, and generally acting fine.
I decided that, since I have another batch of eggs ready - and I need to be able to make the room pitch dark for hatch out tonight - that I would subject the babies to a "dim period" overnight. I shut off the overhead light over their tank, leaving only the light from the nano cultures. It was "dim" for sure but not dark.
All 4 of the baby clowns died. I found them all crammed into the ridge at the bottom of the fish bowl, where the crud all collects.
This was the first time the lights had gone off since hatch. I suspect that what happened was they became confused, and swam down into the corner, and downed/suffocated. I have no other plausable explanation - they were all doing so well, hunting, and growing rapidly.
For this next batch, I will keep the light on 24/7 again, and when I do move them from the fishbowl, I will maintain an overhead "moon light" even at night for at least the first couple months.
Anyone had similar experiences? There was virtually no circulation last night, I had the bubbles at the lowest level. Just 1 every 5-10 seconds. (Maybe I should have kept it high?)
This is so frustrating. Makes me sad, and mad all at the same time. Almost want to not bother with this next nest, but I will anyway
J
FB
New member
Re: Update: Sad news..
Re: Update: Sad news..
Why did you turn the bubble rate down....I would blame this not the dark. All my fish young and old are in the pitch black every night. There is no need for lights at night. Once they are passed meta they can handle a pretty good flow in the tank even power filters.
FB
Re: Update: Sad news..
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13899489#post13899489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbrinker
Well, things were going SOOO well until last night...
I had 4 make it through Meta, they were little clowns. Complete with head stripe and clown-antics. All 4 were hosting on the heater, swimming around, and generally acting fine.
I decided that, since I have another batch of eggs ready - and I need to be able to make the room pitch dark for hatch out tonight - that I would subject the babies to a "dim period" overnight. I shut off the overhead light over their tank, leaving only the light from the nano cultures. It was "dim" for sure but not dark.
All 4 of the baby clowns died. I found them all crammed into the ridge at the bottom of the fish bowl, where the crud all collects.
This was the first time the lights had gone off since hatch. I suspect that what happened was they became confused, and swam down into the corner, and downed/suffocated. I have no other plausable explanation - they were all doing so well, hunting, and growing rapidly.
For this next batch, I will keep the light on 24/7 again, and when I do move them from the fishbowl, I will maintain an overhead "moon light" even at night for at least the first couple months.
Anyone had similar experiences? There was virtually no circulation last night, I had the bubbles at the lowest level. Just 1 every 5-10 seconds. (Maybe I should have kept it high?)
This is so frustrating. Makes me sad, and mad all at the same time. Almost want to not bother with this next nest, but I will anyway
J
Why did you turn the bubble rate down....I would blame this not the dark. All my fish young and old are in the pitch black every night. There is no need for lights at night. Once they are passed meta they can handle a pretty good flow in the tank even power filters.
FB
FB
New member
I know this is after the fact since you have lost your remaining fish but hopefully the answers to your questions will help you in the future.
Good... dripping new water in slowly is best
Did the full bellies appear to have any red in them. If so this would be internal bleeding probably from a perforated stomach
Don't need that much... I'd say about 10-20 bbs per fish 2-3x a day especially if you are still feeding rots. Try to add as little water as possible. You can strain them just like you would with rots.
Good... dripping new water in slowly is best
Did the full bellies appear to have any red in them. If so this would be internal bleeding probably from a perforated stomach
Excellent
My first batch was 5 stick with it you will pick it up.
Yes and No. That is way to many to start with. Once they start to grow they will pollute your water very quickly. However if you see them starting to die you know your water quality is going south. The brine will probably die before your larvae.
Proabably has nothing to do with food. It's the father being a good house keeper. The eggs were probably unfertalized.
Ugh... Actually, I was worried about EXACTLY this scenario. Them getting "stuck" in the crease at the bottom of the tank. I thought, since the flow would be low, they could just roam about. I think now I should have kept the flow high(er).
If you follow that thread over on MOFIB, the recommendation is to keep the lights on to prevent them from crashing into the bottom and getting stuck in the crease. I thought that the lack of current would prevent them from getting swept into the crease - it appears to have done the opposite.
I think, in the future (i.e. next batch - probably tonight) I will keep the circulation and light on 24/7 for the first two weeks, then transfer them to a regular 5 or 10 gallon tank with a sponge filter and a piece of live rock. After that I will start day night cycling.
RE: the brine and deaths- Yes, at least one of the dead on the first day of BBS did indeed have blood in his stomach. Not the others though. Not conclusive I suppose, and I did pour about 1c of brine water into the tank. I have strained them since then, and had no more problems. I think it possibly had to do with the brine water (which I smelled later and it was nasty smelling).
Do you normally just hatch a small batch of brine? I read that they are most nurtritious when first hatched (i.e. first 24h post hatch).
I really hope to get at least 1/4 of this upcoming hatch through to 4 weeks post hatch. I now have two fishbowls, and can split the hatch into two if it is large enough. I think 200 or so larvae per bowl should be fine for the first two weeks. With probably greater water changes than I had been doing with just the 10 or so.
Thanks for the thought about the eating of the eggs- hadn't thought about them being non fertilized. They have not eaten any more since the first couple days, and they all have silver eyes now. I'm planning to pull and tumble them tonight. I expect hatch tonight or tomorrow night.
Temp in the funnel this time will be a nice 84F, not the 76 I wound up with last time.
If you follow that thread over on MOFIB, the recommendation is to keep the lights on to prevent them from crashing into the bottom and getting stuck in the crease. I thought that the lack of current would prevent them from getting swept into the crease - it appears to have done the opposite.
I think, in the future (i.e. next batch - probably tonight) I will keep the circulation and light on 24/7 for the first two weeks, then transfer them to a regular 5 or 10 gallon tank with a sponge filter and a piece of live rock. After that I will start day night cycling.
RE: the brine and deaths- Yes, at least one of the dead on the first day of BBS did indeed have blood in his stomach. Not the others though. Not conclusive I suppose, and I did pour about 1c of brine water into the tank. I have strained them since then, and had no more problems. I think it possibly had to do with the brine water (which I smelled later and it was nasty smelling).
Do you normally just hatch a small batch of brine? I read that they are most nurtritious when first hatched (i.e. first 24h post hatch).
I really hope to get at least 1/4 of this upcoming hatch through to 4 weeks post hatch. I now have two fishbowls, and can split the hatch into two if it is large enough. I think 200 or so larvae per bowl should be fine for the first two weeks. With probably greater water changes than I had been doing with just the 10 or so.
Thanks for the thought about the eating of the eggs- hadn't thought about them being non fertilized. They have not eaten any more since the first couple days, and they all have silver eyes now. I'm planning to pull and tumble them tonight. I expect hatch tonight or tomorrow night.
Temp in the funnel this time will be a nice 84F, not the 76 I wound up with last time.
Ziggy953
Member
This is great information. I'm headed off to read up on the links you all have provided.
My pair of O. Clowns have spawned. This is the first time I've seen the eggs but I'm pretty sure they have done it in the past. They have laid on a branching frogspawn in my frag system. I have a lot to learn and get before I even attempt to raise the fry. I can clearly make out the eyes in the eggs so I guess they are soon to be hatching.
I'll have to tag along with this thread and do some learning!!
My pair of O. Clowns have spawned. This is the first time I've seen the eggs but I'm pretty sure they have done it in the past. They have laid on a branching frogspawn in my frag system. I have a lot to learn and get before I even attempt to raise the fry. I can clearly make out the eyes in the eggs so I guess they are soon to be hatching.
I'll have to tag along with this thread and do some learning!!
Ziggy953
Member
That is true.
I have step 1 covered. A mated pair of clowns. Past that I have nothing. I have to get a culture of phyto going again. I haven't used it in about a year. My reef hasn't needed it. I've never dealt with rots and have to get info on that.
I've decided to leave this nest alone and get some research under my belt and go from there. I was just looking at the eggs some of them I can see silver looking eyes and some of them are black. From what I have read the silver is an indication of near hatching. I'm guessing they will hatch tonight and be consumed before I get to see anything.
I have step 1 covered. A mated pair of clowns. Past that I have nothing. I have to get a culture of phyto going again. I haven't used it in about a year. My reef hasn't needed it. I've never dealt with rots and have to get info on that.
I've decided to leave this nest alone and get some research under my belt and go from there. I was just looking at the eggs some of them I can see silver looking eyes and some of them are black. From what I have read the silver is an indication of near hatching. I'm guessing they will hatch tonight and be consumed before I get to see anything.
Latest Update:
Latest Update:
I removed 90% of the nest monday night using the straw and tube method. I did not damage any eggs, but lost a few into the tank when my son lifted the collection bucket too high (breaking the siphon).
These were tumbling in the funnel, which is suspended in a 5 gallon tank filled with water heated to 86F. This gets me a temp of 82F in the funnel with the air on. (Room is in basement, cold - 65F).
The eggs tumbled Monday, no hatch. I freshened the water Tuesday after work with fresh tank water, and resumed tumbling. I killed the lights a little early - 9:30pm. I went down at 11 and checked (flashlight) and none had hatched, so I went to bed. I got up at 1am and checked, and again, none had hatched. Went back to bed.
At 6:30am, I went down to do morning maintenance, and decided Id better check an egg under the microscope to be sure they are still alive. To my astonishment, when I killed the air, I saw fry swimming about. So I quickly siphoned them into a container, and moved them to the already waiting fish-bowl-kreisel (clean 82F tank water and a rock already in and stable).
After realizing that I had siphoned up a bunch of unhatched eggs I sorted things out by re-siphoning the eggs back into the funnel.
Looks like I had about 50% hatch. The remainder seem viable - I checked a bunch and they still have heartbeats.
I wonder why they hatched split like this? Interesting note - the eggs still in the main tank did NOT hatch yet.
Other data: Main tank temp is 77F, funnel is 82F. I wonder if the increase in temp caused some to hatch early, while the rest will go tonight?
Or, were they hatching (or thinking about it) when I checked at 11pm, or 1am, and the light messed them up?
Thoughts?
Latest Update:
I removed 90% of the nest monday night using the straw and tube method. I did not damage any eggs, but lost a few into the tank when my son lifted the collection bucket too high (breaking the siphon).
These were tumbling in the funnel, which is suspended in a 5 gallon tank filled with water heated to 86F. This gets me a temp of 82F in the funnel with the air on. (Room is in basement, cold - 65F).
The eggs tumbled Monday, no hatch. I freshened the water Tuesday after work with fresh tank water, and resumed tumbling. I killed the lights a little early - 9:30pm. I went down at 11 and checked (flashlight) and none had hatched, so I went to bed. I got up at 1am and checked, and again, none had hatched. Went back to bed.
At 6:30am, I went down to do morning maintenance, and decided Id better check an egg under the microscope to be sure they are still alive. To my astonishment, when I killed the air, I saw fry swimming about. So I quickly siphoned them into a container, and moved them to the already waiting fish-bowl-kreisel (clean 82F tank water and a rock already in and stable).
After realizing that I had siphoned up a bunch of unhatched eggs I sorted things out by re-siphoning the eggs back into the funnel.
Looks like I had about 50% hatch. The remainder seem viable - I checked a bunch and they still have heartbeats.
I wonder why they hatched split like this? Interesting note - the eggs still in the main tank did NOT hatch yet.
Other data: Main tank temp is 77F, funnel is 82F. I wonder if the increase in temp caused some to hatch early, while the rest will go tonight?
Or, were they hatching (or thinking about it) when I checked at 11pm, or 1am, and the light messed them up?
Thoughts?
Here's an update for anyone following along... And of course I'm always looking for input!
I had about 50% hatch on tuesday night and the remainder did hatch on Wednesday night. The next part is the bad part...
Of the first 50%, probably 100 or so, I had about 50% mortality at 24h post hatch. By the time the second half hatched, another 25%, then some of the second hatch did not make it either.
Net result, by Thursday morning I was down to about 20 larvae. By last night perhaps 15 or so, and no more deaths this am.
Essentially I have the same problem each time - great nest, great hatch (99+%), and very poor first day survival.
The larva tank was at the same temp at hatch, 82F. Same water in fact, same pH, zero ammonia. Lots of rots, enough green to satisfy the rots. Lighting low, coming from above. Medium-low circulation.
The only things I can think of are:
- Hatch seems to be coming later that I expect. Brood tank is still only at 75-76F. Perhaps they are delayed, and therefore worn-out by the time they hatch?
- Lighting or circulation are not correct. I did notice one thing last night, due to the light being somewhat diffuse and from an angle, many larvae were gathering on one spot on the bowl, pushing out. I increased circulation, and shielded that side of the bowl with cardboard, now they seem to swim about more. I don't think this is the big problem, but a contributing factor perhaps.
For grow out, Im looking at a "sump liner" from home depot. About 18" diameter, black plastic bucket. I finally got my otohime, and plan to start them on that rather than BBS this time. (I have brine for backup)
I had about 50% hatch on tuesday night and the remainder did hatch on Wednesday night. The next part is the bad part...
Of the first 50%, probably 100 or so, I had about 50% mortality at 24h post hatch. By the time the second half hatched, another 25%, then some of the second hatch did not make it either.
Net result, by Thursday morning I was down to about 20 larvae. By last night perhaps 15 or so, and no more deaths this am.
Essentially I have the same problem each time - great nest, great hatch (99+%), and very poor first day survival.
The larva tank was at the same temp at hatch, 82F. Same water in fact, same pH, zero ammonia. Lots of rots, enough green to satisfy the rots. Lighting low, coming from above. Medium-low circulation.
The only things I can think of are:
- Hatch seems to be coming later that I expect. Brood tank is still only at 75-76F. Perhaps they are delayed, and therefore worn-out by the time they hatch?
- Lighting or circulation are not correct. I did notice one thing last night, due to the light being somewhat diffuse and from an angle, many larvae were gathering on one spot on the bowl, pushing out. I increased circulation, and shielded that side of the bowl with cardboard, now they seem to swim about more. I don't think this is the big problem, but a contributing factor perhaps.
For grow out, Im looking at a "sump liner" from home depot. About 18" diameter, black plastic bucket. I finally got my otohime, and plan to start them on that rather than BBS this time. (I have brine for backup)
Just thought I'd give an update:
No more deaths since day 2/3. There are 10 survivors that have now just about finished meta. They all have little white head bands, and several are "hosting" the heater. All are eating otohime A now, and I imagine still snacking on rots. (There is still a large population living in the fishbowl since I added so many to start with).
I still proceed with daily 10% water changes, and medium circulation. I'm feeding the rots daily about 1/2c nano, but Im slowly reducing the rot population by water change - trying to get them 100% on otohime.
I intended to also feed BBS but had no luck getting two separate batches to hatch (perhaps I decapped them to aggressively?)
As far as day 1/2 survival, I'm going to have to deny physical damage as a cause - the eggs hatch over 99%, and the transfer method I use (siphon) has to be about the least possible damage. They are all very active for the first day or two, but large batches die. I think perhaps the parent nutrition thing may be a better guess - I have only been feeding "natural" foods 2-3 times a week. Mostly pellets. I think more variety, and perhaps more fatty acids and protein is in order.
The parents laid another clutch Saturday (my GOD they are busy little beavers). That's 12 days between clutches. I think I may let this batch go, and concentrate on the 10 little critters I have going now, especially since we will probably not be home Saturday night. If they do not hatch in the tank Sat night, I may siphon some for a Sunday night attempt.
I have also increased the temp in the display tank to 81F, thats as high as I can safely go. Hopefully this will shorten the egg development to 8 days instead of 9.
Next big task is to move the post-meta 10 to better accommodations. I think I will wait another week, and then move them to a 5 gallon tank with sponge filter. At that point they should be off of rotifer 100% and look more like little clowns.
No more deaths since day 2/3. There are 10 survivors that have now just about finished meta. They all have little white head bands, and several are "hosting" the heater. All are eating otohime A now, and I imagine still snacking on rots. (There is still a large population living in the fishbowl since I added so many to start with).
I still proceed with daily 10% water changes, and medium circulation. I'm feeding the rots daily about 1/2c nano, but Im slowly reducing the rot population by water change - trying to get them 100% on otohime.
I intended to also feed BBS but had no luck getting two separate batches to hatch (perhaps I decapped them to aggressively?)
As far as day 1/2 survival, I'm going to have to deny physical damage as a cause - the eggs hatch over 99%, and the transfer method I use (siphon) has to be about the least possible damage. They are all very active for the first day or two, but large batches die. I think perhaps the parent nutrition thing may be a better guess - I have only been feeding "natural" foods 2-3 times a week. Mostly pellets. I think more variety, and perhaps more fatty acids and protein is in order.
The parents laid another clutch Saturday (my GOD they are busy little beavers). That's 12 days between clutches. I think I may let this batch go, and concentrate on the 10 little critters I have going now, especially since we will probably not be home Saturday night. If they do not hatch in the tank Sat night, I may siphon some for a Sunday night attempt.
I have also increased the temp in the display tank to 81F, thats as high as I can safely go. Hopefully this will shorten the egg development to 8 days instead of 9.
Next big task is to move the post-meta 10 to better accommodations. I think I will wait another week, and then move them to a 5 gallon tank with sponge filter. At that point they should be off of rotifer 100% and look more like little clowns.
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