The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9946588#post9946588 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
Okay, here it goes. IR, it seems like your missing a piece of the equation that I know

I don't have access to my notes right now - I refer to them a lot - cement and its chemistry is a vast field, and the more I ask, the more I have to search, and the more I need my notes, lol
There is something here I can't put my finger on, but until I get my notes back, I will just have to wait, or hope at 3am it pops into my head...

I agree. Thus why I'm curious what type of acid would neutralize Ca(OH)2 across the board. Theoretically, Ca(OH)2 has a pH of ~12. That's 5 points higher than Neutral. Thus, to neutralize it, we would need something 5 points lower than Neutral. Thus we would need to use something with a pH of 2.

I know I read somewhere that Sodium Bicarbonate could be used for this purpose.
This is the link - read this. http://www.miswaco.com/Products_and...llingProductsDocuments/SODIUM BICARBONITE.pdf
It was posted by Tahlequah several pages back, and helped spark my latest chain of thought.
I don't understand the formula though, so gave up on the idea based on not knowing enough to use it...

If you have the math and chemistry to figure it out, the formula is given in that pdf.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Keep in mind that a pH test taken about 6 hours after releasing the salt, and placing in clean fresh water, went up past where my test can test. In just 6 hours it made one gallon spike higher than I can test for.

The pH went to 9 after 3 days of vinegar - and I never changed the vinegar solution. It seems to be stable at 9 after 3 days of fresh water pH testing.

I think today is a dumb day for me. I will re-read all this tomorrow - maybe I can form better replies then...

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

I don't have access to my notes right now - I refer to them a lot - cement and its chemistry is a vast field, and the more I ask, the more I have to search, and the more I need my notes, lol
There is something here I can't put my finger on, but until I get my notes back, I will just have to wait, or hope at 3am it pops into my head...

For all intent and purposes for us DIY Rock-ers, all we really need to know is that the Calcium in the lime in the cement reacts with the water first, making Ca(OH)2. The Ca(OH)2 then reacts with the silicates in the clay to give the rock its strength. There are not enough silicates in the mix so that all Ca(OH)2 bonds, so there will always be some Kuring involved. We can either increase the Silicates and add strength to the rock by adding something silicate based (Fly Ash), but it would take a long time for ALL the Ca(OH)2 to complete the C-H-S bonds. Or we can stop the strengthening process (AKA Curing; AKA C-H-S bonding) by tossing it in water and releasing the Ca(OH)2 before it gets a chance to bond to the silicates. That's it. Kuring just takes the Ca(OH)2 out of the rocks to make it safe for the aquarium.

Now, you've done a huge step by applying cement industry techniques and speeding up the C-H-S bonds. Now we need to figure out a few things depending on the method someone chooses to make the rocks reef safe. The length of time that it takes to bake the rocks and get all the C-H-S bonds possible, what type of acid is best used to neutralize any leftover Ca(OH)2, how much acid to do such, how often the Kuring liquid needs to be changed (whether it is water, acid, or a mixture), and a few other small tidbits.

These little keys are all that is left to unlock the door for the quickest Kure time on rocks.

I know I read somewhere that Sodium Bicarbonate could be used for this purpose.
This is the link - read this. http://www.miswaco.com/Products_and...BICARBONITE.pdf
It was posted by Tahlequah several pages back, and helped spark my latest chain of thought.
I don't understand the formula though, so gave up on the idea based on not knowing enough to use it...

I don't see how Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) will help eliminate the pH problem of the rocks. Baking Soda is a base. Bases have high pH's. To neutralize the problem chemically (which is what you're trying to do, IR), you need something with a low pH; an acid. You're on the right track. The use of Baking Soda forces the Calcium out through participation. This is very similar when the Calcium is too high for the Magnesium and Alkalinity in an aquarium and you get all the calcium percipitated on pumps, heaters, etc. This isn't really a huge problem for the rocks except one thing. As the Baking Soda pushes out the Calcium, it leaves caustic Soda behind. This in turn would just be trading one problem for another. In fact, in the article itself, it says not to use it for our application (sort of )

Unless a low pH is desired, Sodium Bicarbonate should not be used to treat soluble calcium in water-base muds and makeup waters; soda ash should be used to reduce calcium and soften makeup water.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Keep in mind that a pH test taken about 6 hours after releasing the salt, and placing in clean fresh water, went up past where my test can test. In just 6 hours it made one gallon spike higher than I can test for.

The pH went to 9 after 3 days of vinegar - and I never changed the vinegar solution. It seems to be stable at 9 after 3 days of fresh water pH testing.

Oops. My misunderstanding. I thought it was 9 after the initial testing, not three days after. Regardless, I think the spike has been reached and you're now on the downward slope of safe rock. Still, your time length has been far less than most.

 

[Insane Reefer]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless a low pH is desired, Sodium Bicarbonate should not be used to treat soluble calcium in water-base muds and makeup waters; soda ash should be used to reduce calcium and soften makeup water.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The way I read that, SB will produce a low pH - which is what we want; use fly ash if pH doesn't matter. If I misread that, then my bad.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Whether you misread it or I misread it is gonna have to be determined by a professional :lmao:

I read it as Sodium Bicarbonate will push out the Calcium with the Bicarbonate, but the Sodium (Soda after all the chemical process work out) will be left. Thus, the pH would still be high and cause the rock to be caustic enough not to be suitable for reef tanks. The Fly Ash wouldn't matter in our case unless you want to wait an incredibly long amount of time for all the Ca(OH)2 to bond with the Silicates in the Fly Ash

 

[Insane Reefer]

LOL
Anyway, I was a bad monkey last night and didn't cast, but I did cast today - just finished at 2pm. So my bake will be Wednesday evening, after dinner.
I made 3 test batches. 1 white cement and 1 grey cement "ol' skool+" and one grey with sand and salt only (I'm thinking of you Travis).

Batch 1 and 2, white and grey respectively used the same recipe, as follows. 1 cement, 1 sand, 1.5 CO, 0.5 CC and 1 salt.
Batch 3, grey cement and sand was as follows: 1 cement, 1 sand, 2 salt.

All 3 batches will be treated separately, but identically, and all results will be posted.

 

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9946307#post9946307 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
Yip/Insane, I forgot about the old usage of canaries and mine shafts. Sorry, not a bird person. Like cats, I like them but they don't like me.

Hey, it's ok.. it's just after paying $1,500 for a parrot.. you tend to be a bit cautious!

 

[Yinepu]

ok.. i know NOTHING about chemistry... so what I am going to ask may be the stupidist question in the world.. but instead of vinegar, could you use some of the pond/spa/swimming pool "PH down" type chemicals?

 

[Azazael13]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9950047#post9950047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
ok.. i know NOTHING about chemistry... so what I am going to ask may be the stupidist question in the world.. but instead of vinegar, could you use some of the pond/spa/swimming pool "PH down" type chemicals?

oh oh I think I can take this one!!


No, mostly because that will just lower the ph of the water, not the rock.

 

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9950080#post9950080 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
oh oh I think I can take this one!!


No, mostly because that will just lower the ph of the water, not the rock.

but wouldn't that have the same effect? The spa chemical we have is sodium bisulfate. After a quick google search I found this: "Solutions of sodium bisulfate are acid, with a 1M solution having pH of 1.4"

 

[Insane Reefer]

Whatever effects the water will effect the rock. My question wouldn't be "would it work?", but instead, "will it be safe for the reef?".

Something like that might bind to the rock, and leech into the system.

I've asked this same question several times, and never gotten a reply to it.

 

[Azazael13]

I fail

I thought I saw somewhere it had to do with just affecting the water and not the rock (didn't know theph level was so low on those)

 

[Yinepu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9950783#post9950783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Whatever effects the water will effect the rock. My question wouldn't be "would it work?", but instead, "will it be safe for the reef?".

Something like that might bind to the rock, and leech into the system.

I've asked this same question several times, and never gotten a reply to it.

they say it's used in pet foods... so i dunno how it would affect corals and other critters... (would the concentrations be safe basically...)

 

[Yinepu]

well.. i just found this:

Sodium Bisulfate directly acidifies the diet without affecting the calcium/phosphate ratio. Sodium Bisulfate Animal Feed Grade is one of the safest products available when compared to other pet food acidifiers. It is classified as a general purpose food additive under AAFCO Feed Ingredient Definition Table 87.5.

from http://www.jones-hamilton.com/products_sodium_bi_animal.html

Sodium Bisulfate
MIXING INSTRUCTIONS: Mix 30 grams of crystals with 60 ml (2 oz) of water. Shake well, then use one drop of this stock solution per gallon of aquarium water and this will lower the pH by 0.2.

USE: To lower pH of aquarium water.

from here:
http://reefshow.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=245

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9949969#post9949969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
Hey, it's ok.. it's just after paying $1,500 for a parrot.. you tend to be a bit cautious!

True. I think I'ld rather spend it on my tank though

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9950047#post9950047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
ok.. i know NOTHING about chemistry... so what I am going to ask may be the stupidist question in the world.. but instead of vinegar, could you use some of the pond/spa/swimming pool "PH down" type chemicals?

Technically yes, but what is the acid, and at what ratio should it be added? FWIW, it most likely is Muratic Acid, but who knows. Each brand/type has their own unique chemical makeup

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9950080#post9950080 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
No, mostly because that will just lower the ph of the water, not the rock.

Actually, that is what we are trying to do. The Ca(OH)2 in the rock is causing the pH of the water to spike. We'll need an acid to apply to the water to make the water Neutral again.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9950126#post9950126 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
but wouldn't that have the same effect? The spa chemical we have is sodium bisulfate. After a quick google search I found this: "Solutions of sodium bisulfate are acid, with a 1M solution having pH of 1.4"

This could technically work. That is a pretty strong acid. After it reacts with the Ca(OH)2, any left over will keep dropping the pH and actually eat away at the rocks and degrade the strength. Once again, we'll just need to know what ratio to add it as.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9950783#post9950783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Whatever effects the water will effect the rock. My question wouldn't be "would it work?", but instead, "will it be safe for the reef?".

It's not the acid that I worry about. It's the resulting salt from the Acid and Base mixing. There are more than one type of salt in this world besides Table Salt (NaCl). We need to worry about if the ending salt that might not get washed out with pure water Kuring will have a detremintal effect on our tanks.

I've asked this same question several times, and never gotten a reply to it.

Me too, but the question is REALLY complicated. I'm still searching though. There IS an answer.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9950852#post9950852 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
I thought I saw somewhere it had to do with just affecting the water and not the rock (didn't know theph level was so low on those)

The largest problem I see is not actually finding what acid will get rid of all the Ca(OH)2 to make the rocks Neutral, it's finding the acid that doesn't degrade the rocks. (As well as eco-friendly, cheap, easily obtainable, and reef-safe)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9952579#post9952579 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu
they say it's used in pet foods... so i dunno how it would affect corals and other critters... (would the concentrations be safe basically...)

Probably as a biproduct of something else, making the actual amount in the food extremely minimal.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9952607#post9952607 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinepu

Sodium Bisulfate
MIXING INSTRUCTIONS: Mix 30 grams of crystals with 60 ml (2 oz) of water. Shake well, then use one drop of this stock solution per gallon of aquarium water and this will lower the pH by 0.2.

USE: To lower pH of aquarium water.

from here:
http://reefshow.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=245

Well, this sounds nice and all, but how does it lower the pH? Does it react with the Calcium in the water, or another chemical? If we can figure out its usage, it seems like knowing this information at this ratio could really make dosing acid easier to lower the pH

 

[Yinepu]

does this help any? lol... nope.. I'm not into chemistry so I have NO CLUE!!!
(see below)

 

[Yinepu]

Sodium bisulfate is produced by two methods. One method involves mixing stoichiometric quantities of sodium hydroxide and sulfuric acid which react to form sodium bisulfate and water.

NaOH + H2SO4 → NaHSO4 + H2O

A second production method involves reacting sodium chloride (salt) and sulfuric acid at elevated temperatures to produce sodium bisulfate and hydrogen chloride gas.

NaCl + H2SO4 → NaHSO4 + HCl

The liquid sodium bisulfate is sprayed and cooled so that it forms a solid bead. The hydrogen chloride gas is dissolved in water to produce hydrochloric acid as a useful byproduct of the reaction.

Descriptive Chemistry

The product of commerce is the monohydrate.

Solutions of sodium bisulfate are acid, with a 1M solution having pH of 1.4. In some applications, such solutions can be used instead of sulfuric acid solution. For example, from a solution of sodium bisulfate and sodium acetate it is possible to distill acetic acid. Sodium bisulfate solutions will also liberate CO2 from most carbonates.

The anhydrous form is hygroscopic. Its melting point is poorly defined because it begins to decompose into sodium pyrosulfate and water before it reaches its melting points.

Sodium bisulfate behaves, to some degree, as if it were a complex of sodium sulfate with sulfuric acid. This is evident if either the anhydrous form or the monohydrate come in contact with ethanol, which causes them to separate into those two components.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate

 

[Yinepu]

does this help any?

Synonyms: sodium hydrogen sulphate, sodium bisulfate, sodium bisulphate, sodium pyrosulphate, sodium pyrosulfate, sulfuric acid monosodium salt, nitre cake, GBS, acid sodium sulfate, acid sodium sulphate, monosodium hydrogen sulfate, monosodium hydrogen sulphate, sodium hydrosulfate, sodium hydrosulphate, sulfuric acid sodium salt (1:1), niter cake
Molecular formula: HNaSO4 H2O

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

That's all great information, but I don't know if it actually helps or not. It doesn't help me, but with all that chemical knowledge, it might help someone.