The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

Don't get me wrong, Eaj, you can use it. I think this type of cement product would be considered "hydraulic" cement - the type used for waterproof patches. However, one of the interesting features of cement, and why it works for live rock is something called "capillaries". They are much like the capillaries found in living creatures, but in cement they are much tinier - and it is these capillaries that allow our rock to house enough bacteria to work as a biological filter. Hydraulics are mostly lacking these capillaries, and as such probably won't allow nearly the filtration possibilities that traditional portland types can.
I'm sure that Rhody can fill in whatever I may have missed or skewed, but that is my understanding of the problem.
You would be much better off, IMO, to find a similar product that isn't waterproof - you should still be able to find a white mortar not meant for glass blocks or bathrooms. This stuff says "additives" but doesn't really elaborate - some products like this feature mold/bacterial killers in them so your white bathroom grout/mortar doesn't get black and icky so soon. That would be another worry in my mind.
Many folks do use this sort of cement (waterpatch) to make backwalls, or to cement bits of live rock together - it is typically safe to use, I just don't know how much filtration you will be able to expect from it, and that is one of those thing that will suck to learn of the hard way...

Sand on the other hand. Use pretty much anything you want. That pulverized limestone would be tops. Silica based sands are starting to loose their bad rap. I think the big scare thing came from the fact that algaes seem to love to grow on smooth surfaces - they grow on our glass and plastic parts before growing other places, typically. Well, most silica sands are - you guessed it - smooth. So a person uses silica sand for their DSB, and 2 months later green algae has colored it up. Assumption? Silica sand is causing green algae growth.
This is incorrect - the algae has decided to grow on the smooth sand grains.

SO use what you want sand-wise, but try to find a non-hydraulic cement for the rock...
JMTC

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9974186#post9974186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by medic29
Insane Reefer: is it too late to be one of the monkeys??

Never too late to be a monkey, Rick.
Just follow the test I've laid out to the best of your ability, and post results and your recipe.

Your plan for boiling the rock is great. I think, considering when salt is typically released in non-baked rocks, that boiling would actually, sort of, take the place of a late bake. It will hurt nothing (except the pot), and give you cleaner rock - boiling helps purge the crud as well.
Kiddy pool would be cheaper, I think and hold more water volume - and I'd put a PH on it, but maybe a cheap old one - not a new/nice/expensive MJ.


If you have any questions, please feel free to ask - I'll help as I can

And thank you, Rick

 

[Insane Reefer]

Correction
I told Rick that a kiddy pool would work best for him, but had accidentally mixed him and Eaj up when answering questions. Since Rick is going to try the baking method (have to coin a term for this new way), he won't need the water volume that the old kure method needs. I told him to get a Kiddy Pool, but in fact, if he is just making enough for the test, a 5 gallon bucket will work as well.
Just wanted to fix that error...

 

[Barto]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9974663#post9974663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
(have to coin a term for this new way),

Hot Kure?
Quik Kure?
Hot rocks?
Jiffy Rocks?

I need to get back to the drawing board & make more rocks also...
soon I hope

 

[eaj43081]

well I was trying to search for other alternatives for white portland cement and found some thinset mortar mix that is avalible in white but most of them state they are "polymer fortified" so I don't think this is going to work either. Well I quess I will be looking for just white portland cement. I will also be putting myself up as a lab monkey so when I purchase the material this week I will PM you IR and make sure I have evrything set up right. I will probably start with just the grey cement, because of availabilty, pulverized limestone and salt. If all goes well I will probably head out and look for the white cement in the future. Thanks everyone for the info and happy testing.

 

[Insane Reefer]

I'd probably get sued if I tried to use "Easy Bake Rocks". Bart, "Jiffy Rocks" isn't bad, but sort of corny If I had to pick one of your offerings, that would be the one I'd take.

Awesome Eaj The most important part of this test, to my mind anyway, are the long term results - tests at weeks one, two and if possible, week 3 as well. I want to know these won't spike before I go crazy with making the process known.

The rocks I made for the "Half-Baked Test" have been in freshwater for test for a week and a half now. Seems to have raised about .5 on pH - currently at 9.5, maybe a hair less, but this is one gallon of water. If it holds steady there, I'd have no problem at all putting it in a normally buffered system as it sits. Half-Baked were also in a weaker solution and for only 3 days - I think the altered parameters for the lab monkey tests will be just the thing.
Here's hoping

 

[GuySmilie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9972900#post9972900 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eaj43081
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/GlassBlockMortar.asp I don't know if this post came through, never posted websites on here. If not it is on quikrete site.

eaj, I hope you try this stuff.
I've eyeballed it in the stores on several occasions, but already had a good supply of the stuff I'm using.
I would be very curious to see what your results would be with this stuff.
As for adding sand to it (aggregate), I believe it's already in there.
Looking forward to what you find.

 

[eaj43081]

I've looked at the msds for the glass block mortar mix and the it says it has portland cement, sand, lime, pulverized limestone, iron oxide pigments, and clay. It claims to have a "waterproof" joint but it also suggest using a concrete fortifier with it which would make it "more waterproof" so I was wondering what in it makes it "waterproof". I was thinking the clay may help with this but I don't think clay would be harmful to a reef system. Then I was worried about the iron oxide pigments. From what I've been reading about this it seems to be a color additive but don't know how this would affect a reef system. Anyone with any thoughts on this matter? I've also been looking at other products with white portland cement at the local hardware stores and I found some thinset mortar mixes with it but they are much more expensive. I was going to rule the glass block mortar mix out but now that I see there is interest in it I may go through with making the two batches and see what happens. Can anyone think of any tests that I would be able to conduct on the two to see how they compare?

 

[medic29]

Insane Reefer: I went out to get some pulverized limestone and was not able to find that particular item. What I did find was pelletized limestone, so I got a bag of that. This morning I did a search and find where pulverized limestone is talked about quite a bit. I guess my question is, are these the same or is the pulverized limestone finer, more like sand or play sand verses small pellets?

 

[Insane Reefer]

Rick, the only Pelletized Lime (not limestone) I know of is actually a lawn fertilizer - I had found some of this stuff at my local ACE. The stuff I found was in peas sized BB's. I took a "sample" and cast a piece with it, but the stuff never released, which was odd since the pieces I dropped in water fizzed away...
As long as your stuff doesn't dissolve in water, I'd say you are ok.

Pulverized Limestone will be like a course pale grey Caribbean play sand, which when cast with white portland makes a nice mottled coloring effect.

Call your local feed store and ask for Limestone/Lime Chicken Grit - you could get your Oyster Shell there too, if you plan to use it.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Eaj, unfortunately I think our tests are pretty much limited to pH and "trickle test".
You could try a trickle test after all is said and done. Allow a piece to completely dry out, take a cup of water and pour it into the rock. How much flows over the rock and how much flows through the rock - and how quickly did the water travel through the rock? If most of the water flowed through the rock and not over it, then the rock is porous enough for water to flow through it...
It would be really cool if we could get microscope photos of the matrix magnified (name for new movie?, lol) to see what kind of pore and capillary action there was going on...

 

[Insane Reefer]

Hey, I was bored today, and since we need to come up with a name for the new process anyway, I've posted a poll here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1124876
Suggest a name (on that thread please) or vote on one of the 3 listed.
Thanks!

 

[eaj43081]

I think what I'm going to try with the gbmm is to add more salt than with the regular cement rock to try and create more pours in the rock. My plan with the gbmm will be 1:1:2 (gbmm:dolomite:salt). With the grey portland cement I was thinking 1:2:1 (cement:dolomite:salt). Does this sound like a good ratio or should I do more on certain parts?

 

[Insane Reefer]

Eaj, I used a 1cement: 1sand: 2salt for my sand/salt only test rocks, so seeing if there is any difference with different recipes would be nice. If you can, do 3 rocks of each recipe, so you can make comparisons during the pH testing phase - each rock needs to be tested separately, but if you just can't do that, then each batch should be kept together.
See my following "Lab Monkey" post for more details.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Lab Monkeys - Heads Up

Lab Monkeys - Heads Up

Ok folks.
For the testing to be legitimate and to be called proof, we really need to keep track of details.
Keep notes on everything, please. Recipes, materials, ratios, time (within an hour), etc all need to be noted, and sent on to me via PM so I don't miss it in a post. But it should still be posted for the group as a whole to see.

I would like up front are your starting freshwater pH - what it reads right from the tap. Mine is 7.5.
I need accurate (to within an hour) times that you start each of the following steps:
1. Cast
2. Bake Start
3. Bake Finish
4. Cooling Allowance
5. Plunge Time/Salt Release
6. End Of Salt Release
7. Start of Acid Bath
8. End Acid Bath
9. Begin 3 Day pH Testing
10. pH Test for End of Week 2

I know it seems like a lot, but data is needed to verify this process. People will also feel better being able to see the results from a battery of tests, and not just the test results of one person testing one or two batches, and be encouraged to try it though it is a new process.

And please. If you choose to do this test, please do it as honestly as you can. If for whatever reason, you can't complete a step in the outlined time, just say so, make a note, and continue with the test. Variables like not being able to start the acid bath right away, are not a bad thing - so please don't skew the data trying to cover that you maybe slacked or had something truly important come up.

I would also like to go over the acid bath step and make a minor change. I would like you to try a 4cup vinegar to 1gallon water solution. If you add the vinegar to a 5g bucket, then fill the bucket with water, you will reach this ratio. Divide the 5 gallons into 3 equal portions in 3 separate containers (if you did 3 test pieces - if not adjust as needed) - one container for each rock. Then add the rocks. This way you can easily mix the solution and divide it without worrying about displacement, etc.
Leave the rocks in for 3 days. If you have spare powerheads, use them, if not, don't, but keep track of which batches got movement, and did not get movement. If you are not using a PH (like me), plunge the rocks once a day. Just pick them up, let them drain a bit dip and repeat a couple of times. If you want, leave one completely alone just to see if there are any end differences.

And one last bit about the testing phase. Make sure to keep an eye on the water levels in the testing containers. I reported yesterday that is seemed that my Half-Baked testers had risen half a point. I noticed today that half my water had evaporated, lol! I refilled to one gallon and retested (twice) and got 8.5 pH each time. My rock hadn't risen, it had dropped, somehow...
So make sure you know if you have evaporation going on - mark the container with tape or marker to keep water levels consistent!

Ok that is all
I'm off!

 

[eaj43081]

What are you guys using to test your ph? All that I have at this time is salifert tests which only go up to 8.6 I think. Is there a way I can test higher values with these like add twice as much water and the same amout of test solution then multiply by 2 or some other way.

 

[Insane Reefer]

You could use Litmus paper, or cheap pH test strips or kit - maybe a pool test? Just needs to test freshwater.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

Okay, finally made it through the last two pages that happened from the weekend.

Rick: I covered Pulverized Limestone back before the first split. We've been able to find Pavestone brand Pulverized Limestone only at Home Depots. It is a sand grain sized sand that is limestone based, but not as pure as Aragonite sand. It still works great for tanks, but is a little more grey. I've also highlighted it in my Want to Start a Marine Aquarium?: A Step by Step Guide thread. Just click the link at the table of contents for Substrates and you'll be taken to lots of info on it as well as putting it to the Vinegar test with real Aragonite sand and play sand.

Insane Reefer: It sounds like you've made a lot of leeway in recent times. I'm eager to get mine cooking and soaking to see some results. I'm confident that even if you put the ones that have slightly elevated pH in your tank that it will still be fine and not harm anything.

 

[goldmaniac]

I bought a pack of 50 litmus tests for pH, range was something like 3 - 13 , on eBay for $5, including shipping.

What arrived was a little round container, like a thin film canister, with 50 pieces of paper, each about 3 cm long. They seem pretty accurate, cheap, and nice wide range.

cheap and simple.

G.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Yeah - locally they are $8 to $10, Goldman - but I am going to have my hubby pick some up.

ATTENTION LAB MONKEYS!
I have made a simple Word doc form for those who would like to help with testing. Please email me (it is in User Profile) and I will send it out to you.
I was thinking you could print a copy to carry around while you are working on the rock, and then when you are done and ready to post your results, you could fill it in with Word/Wordpad, save it and return it to me.

That way I can sort of keep track of who is testing and pester them if they fail to send back results
Thanks!