Theoretical questions about sumps (and not having one on a BIG tank)

[SereneAquatic]

I'm having a bit of a war with myself on filtration when we upgrade the 90 gallon tank.

Theoretically, tanks do not need sumps.

Two cases in point:
We have our 55 gallon QT with no sump at all. It has an internal, hang-IN skimmer (Hydor Slim-Skim Nano Protein Skimmer) with a heater stuck to the glass nearby. Two powerheads on either end keep the water moving and ensure good gas exchange. That's all the 'equipment' this tank has. Granted, there is no light on that tank, as it has housed only fish and inverts so far, so algae hasn't been an issue (not even cyano).

We have our nano tank that has the small space behind it that they call a 'sump', but it's only purpose seems to be to run the water through the sock... which by the way we didn't know existed until recently because we picked up the tank as a floor model and then never changed the sock for over a year. :hmm5:. We do not use the skimmer that came with it (the thing is too finicky to ever dial in right). It essentially just takes water in the overflow, through the sock, and back into the return. There is a heater back there, but also one visible IN the tank because I like the redundancy. It has a Sicce nano stream powerhead that also assists with moving the water, set on a timer to go on and off at intervals. Again, I see no value of having a 'sump' for that tank.

So, let's try to scale it up. Let's assume that you could set up a large tank, say a 210, with NO sump usage. On our current 90 gallon the only real benefits we see for the sump are these:

- A place to grow chaeto and pest algae under a Kessil H380 while also keeping the pH balanced in off hours
- A place to house my rogue crab, who I love but who is a jerk.
- Maybe (serious maybe) a spot for a skimmer, but I find that we do not use our skimmer much on the current tank and find no real bad effects.
- MAYBE a refugium for pods... but I dont really see them thrive there, even without the crab and with the skimmer out of use. I dont think they like the Kessil.

If we didn't use a sump on what we have now in the 90, we would have more pH swings, but honestly the fish and corals in the nano tank without the refugium seem much happier than inhabitants of the 90, and their pH surely swings at night. We do not have probes from the Apex in that tank so I don't know the extent of it. I will say that the nano DOES have a small ball of chaeto stuffed in some rock work in the back, and stays green and growing under the normal tank lights. Pods seem to LOVE hanging out there.

If we didn't use a sump on what we have now in the 90, we might have more algae growing in the tank itself (it's hard to know sometimes if having the Kessil really PREVENTS it in the main tank... or just ENCOURAGES it in the sump...)

We would be using Kalk for our dosing, with no plans to use a calcium reactor. In fact... we do not use any other tech other than what's needed to keep the water heated, moving and growing green stuff with the Kessil.

We do water changes fairly frequently, at about 30% every week or two and don't auto feed the tank.

The 90 is lightly stocked (Blue Hybrid Tang, Lemonpeel, 2 Clowns, Fire Shrimp, Turbo Snails, micro hermits) and has a couple of corals.

The nano tank is similarly stocked with fish (two mature clowns, hawkfish, file fish, conch, micro hermits, turbo snails) but that tank seems to be MUCH more stable and happy than we've ever managed to get in the 90. (Granted, much of last year was spent dealing with a different issue, but even prior to that, the 90 was never what I would call "happy". No real issues with algae or pests... it's just kind of VISIBLE that the nano is more diverse and healthy.)

Does anyone run a really "natural" tank like this, without a lot of the tech and equipment... even without a sump... successfully at that scale? Can it be done while still having a nice reef tank? Let's assume we stay lightly stocked with fish relative to its size, and add more corals over time.

Thoughts?

 

[ReefsandGeeks]

You certainly don't need to have a sump to be successful. To me, the sumps main purpose is to give a remote place to install all of the life support and filtration equipment you would like to run on the tank. It being that it has a much smaller surface area, an ATO would also be more responsive and keep salinity a bit more stable.

Depending on what you wnat to do with the tank, you may end up running alot of equipment to run a fully stocked SPS donimate tank. Often a calcium reactor is run, or 2 part on a doser to maintain alkalinity and calcium. GFO and Carbon reactors to control phosphate and remove yellowing pigments from the water. A sump is a great place to use matrix or other anerobic bacteria products if needed. Large skimmers aren't offered in a HOB version, so if you want a skimmer you're options would be limited to more modest sizes.

For a years I ran my tank (65 gallon) as a HOB only and did just fine. I grew coral fine, fish were happy and everything healthy. I've since upgraded to a 150 gallon which has a sump, and to be honest, I was a bit underwhelmed with it's usefulness at first with how a sump is often seen as close to a necessity for a reef tank. I still prefer the sump for hiding most of the equipment, but not necessary for success. It is nice for any equipment I want to add though as nothing I add needs to find space ehind the tank, or anything unsightly in the display. Plus my equipment is a bit less messy to work on under the tank than behind it.

One other note, 30% water changes a week is alot more than most people with large tanks do. More likely would be 30% a month, possibly broken up into a few smaller changes. 30% water changes a week on my 150 gallon would be 180 gallons a month, or about a full box of salt. That's more than I'd like to be changing, so I rely more on filtration than water changes. The larger the tank, the less attractive large water change schedules tend to look.

 

[SereneAquatic]

You certainly don't need to have a sump to be successful. To me, the sumps main purpose is to give a remote place to install all of the life support and filtration equipment you would like to run on the tank. It being that it has a much smaller surface area, an ATO would also be more responsive and keep salinity a bit more stable.

In our new build, I think we would create an ATO with a fairly large reservoir and have it be gravity fed on a float valve. I'm thinking on top of a shelf next to the tank, but kind of "hidden" and not super obvious as a 'container of water'.

Depending on what you wnat to do with the tank, you may end up running alot of equipment to run a fully stocked SPS donimate tank. Often a calcium reactor is run, or 2 part on a doser to maintain alkalinity and calcium. GFO and Carbon reactors to control phosphate and remove yellowing pigments from the water. A sump is a great place to use matrix or other anerobic bacteria products if needed. Large skimmers aren't offered in a HOB version, so if you want a skimmer you're options would be limited to more modest sizes.

My husband and I tend to gravitate toward LPS and softies, we like the movement it creates in the tank. There may be a few SPS introduced to the tank, but I think they would be minimal, and more to break up the landscape than anything else. I do worry a bit about being able to keep the water pristine enough for any SPS without a sump and skimmer though. I have some montipora in the nano that seems to do OK so far (as in, not dying) but I dont really see it growing very much either. It could be the lighting, since it's actually down on the sand bed at the moment.

The yellowing of the water does become an issue in the 55 where we have no carbon, so I may do a test and see if I can absorb it without using a reactor. I know it would be much less efficient, but may work?

For a years I ran my tank (65 gallon) as a HOB only and did just fine. I grew coral fine, fish were happy and everything healthy. I've since upgraded to a 150 gallon which has a sump, and to be honest, I was a bit underwhelmed with it's usefulness at first with how a sump is often seen as close to a necessity for a reef tank. I still prefer the sump for hiding most of the equipment, but not necessary for success. It is nice for any equipment I want to add though as nothing I add needs to find space ehind the tank, or anything unsightly in the display. Plus my equipment is a bit less messy to work on under the tank than behind it.

Funny you should say that... I actually get reaaally annoyed that the sump is under the tank. I feel like I have no room to work or access things. If we do incorporate a sump in the new build, it will probably be along side the tank, maybe hidden behind a little wall or shield of some sort.

One other note, 30% water changes a week is alot more than most people with large tanks do. More likely would be 30% a month, possibly broken up into a few smaller changes. 30% water changes a week on my 150 gallon would be 180 gallons a month, or about a full box of salt. That's more than I'd like to be changing, so I rely more on filtration than water changes. The larger the tank, the less attractive large water change schedules tend to look.

That's a good point. 30% of the 90 is one 30 gallon brute trash can filled and readied. If we go to say, a 180, it would be two trash cans filled. That's a lot. To keep the same schedule, we would have to probably do 30 gallons weekly. I dont know how far a 30% change in a month would go toward keeping the water as clean as I would want it. Thanks for mentioning this. *makes more notes*

 

[sde1500]

It keeps skimmers, reactors, heaters, do-dads, cords, top off hoses, water change hoses, dosing containers and hoses, and other such tank keep devices out of sight. Certainly not needed. But with bigger tanks it seems far more ideal to use one than not.

 

[murphreef]

^ agreed sumps are a great place to hide equipment and add water volume to a system for stability purposes.....

I have an ALL IN ONE nano and love it as far as a nano goes..... but with larger tanks comes larger support equipment and that's when the benefit of a sump really shines.

I had a 180 SPS tank before and I could barely fit all the equipment under my stand.

Below is a picture of my AIO



This is a picture of my old 180 sump area.... Imagine trying to hide all that equipment without a sump compartment. I still had a chiller and an ATO reservoir sitting on the side lol

 

[Kevin Guthrie]

I have a 90, and a sump on the other side of a wall to the left of the tank. It occurred to me long ago that my electric bill would have gone down if I had gotten a tank that was two feet longer and extended it thru the wall into the room with the sump, because then I would not need the return pump running 24/7. Two feet would be enough for the skimmer, reactors, and heaters. If needed I could screen it from the main tank with egg crate diffuser, and it would also allow me to hide the circulation pumps and of course get rid of the overflow. Simple is better.

 

[SereneAquatic]

I have a 90, and a sump on the other side of a wall to the left of the tank. It occurred to me long ago that my electric bill would have gone down if I had gotten a tank that was two feet longer and extended it thru the wall into the room with the sump, because then I would not need the return pump running 24/7. Two feet would be enough for the skimmer, reactors, and heaters. If needed I could screen it from the main tank with egg crate diffuser, and it would also allow me to hide the circulation pumps and of course get rid of the overflow. Simple is better.

I like this line of thinking.

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[ReefsandGeeks]

I would love to have a sump just behind the wall of the tank in the next room for ease of access and maintenance if possible. I don't have the room for that in my house, but could put the sump directly below the tank in the basement. I have decided against this for now due to the much higher cost of a powerful return pump and running it with the increased head pressure.

Although you would need 24/7 power for the return in order to keep the heated and filtered water from the sump circulating (other than during maintenance of course), you don't really need a very large pump if you don't need high head pressure. Even 3X turn over per hour of your tank would be fine in most cases. Meaning, on a 200 gallon tank, a return pump running at 600gph would be sufficient. I have a MAG 9.5 on my 150 gallon and have it choked back about 50%. on MAG pumps, this actually reduces electricity consumption as well as lower the flowrate.

Kevin's idea of making the tank and "in-wall" or partial "in-wall" would be a nice solution for hiding HOB equipment or other out of the tank equipment in the next room if you don't have an excessive amount of equipment running. With softies and some LPS this would be doable if you so chose.

A bag of carbon will work fine if you don't have a reactor, and is what I currently use. For a long time I didn't believe running GAC in a reactor would be worth the added cost or slightly less convinced. But I just watched a BRS video that clearly showed how much better it can perform in a reactor, so I've added one to my wish list of things.

It is useful when making a bigger decision, like sump or no sump, to remind yourself of what goals you're trying to acheive. If you're filtration needs require you to run large equipment, or alot of various gadgets, than a sump may make more sense. If you only need more simple filtration, than some HOB type stuff may suffice just fine for you and be more what you're looking for. Having either sensitive species, like some SPS coral or lots of messy fish than you might want to consider beefing up your filtration, or allowing yourself more freedom to upgrade later. Whether this means a sump or not is up to you. If your filtration needs are not so high, or don't wish to go in a direction with your tank that would cause you to need increased filtration, than you may only want a sump if it seems more convenient to you.

In the end, pick whatever meets your needs and wants. There's lots of different ways of doing things in reefing because there are alot of different tanks, all with their own "best" way of doing things.