Thinking out loud about my tank....

[MrSquid]

I'm planning on doing an aggressive tank- either a 90 or 125. I had been thinking 90, but now I'm leaning toeards a 125 for the extra length vs. height. Tank will be a reef ready All-Glass (all that's available in our area - wife's vetoing Oceanic because of the severe oak grain on the stand/canopy).

My wish list for fish would be a smaller lion, puffer (porky or spiny box - or both!), some sort of eel (LOVE ribbons - not sure if I'm brave enough to try one), a harlequin tusk, a couple of tangs and a couple of triggers (gotta have a clown!). Would also love a flame angel and a red coris wrasse too. I know that's a good-sized list - of course not all of these will end up in there, but that's along the lines of what I'm thinking. Planning on buying the fish small(ish) and enjoying watching them grow.

So... with those fish in mind, I'm considering going FOWLR and would do a refugium if I go that route. If not, I'm looking at the the All Glass "Megaflow 4" wet/dry (swap bio balls for live rock?). Other suggestions on a good wet/dry? What skimmers are you guys using on your tanks? Ozone? UV? (unfortunately it's hard to search here for past discussions since the search function always seems to be off... )

All has to fit under the stand - plumbing into the basement isn't an option. The budget is in the $3000-3500 range.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. I'm not married to anything except for the tank size (which is out of necessity - wall space and weight limit)

 

[lowendmelody]

125 my friend, I'm sure most anyone will back me on this, given you have the space and the little extra in your budget. for a fowlr, the expenses and maintenance won't be too much more either. fowlr tanks only need as much light as you feel you can afford and as long as the fish have some sort of light cycle, they'l be fine.. Your rock will still harbor all the necessary bacteria in time as well, regardless of light........................................

and you will really appreciate the length, and so won't your fish

in my humble opinion.

 

[JustinReef]

I agree, go 125 for sure. I had a 90G and its not the greatest for predator fish. It will really limit what you can keep. You don't need the height really either. I had to downgrade from a 220G to something around 120G myself and thought I was going to be unhappy with the new tank but its been awesome so far. I ended up with a custom tank 72"x20"x20", so I think around 130G. I love the shallow tank! Really not a huge difference in space to me between the 220G and 130G simply because the 220G was mostly just taller and a little deeper.

As for your stock list, that seems like quite a lot for the 125G but maybe with just one of those puffers and one each of the tangs and triggers it would work. What I did this time was give up a bit of the more aggressive huge fish I had and keep it to a Porc Puffer and a bunch of medium sized fish with lots of color and movement. This mix is by far my favorite FOWLR I have ever had. I miss my Lion and eel but seeing so many colorful fish swimming about and my Puffer who is king of the tank is awesome. So far I have the Porc., Flasher Wrasse, Flame Angel, Long Nose Hawk, Yellow tail Damsel, Orange Anthias, Pink Anthias, Golden Head Sleeper Goby, Green Spotted Puffer and a Yellow Tail Coris Wrasse....AKA Red Coris Wrasse from your list.

Anyways, just something to think about.

 

[JustinReef]

And for lighting, I still spent about $400 and went with a higher end T5 Retrofit. I figured if Im spending all this money on beautiful fish, I may as well really bring their color out! I actually set this tank up the same as a reef but with a little less lighting. Still have big sump, refugium, ozone, skimmer, ect. I am also growing as much macro algae as possible in the display to give it a bit of a planted tank look. Hopefully it will all turn out as planned over time!

 

[LisaD]

I think you are going to have to prune back on your stock list quite a bit. I can relate to your list. My 120 and 210 are starting to seem way too small, given the fish I want and like.

Here's my $0.02. I'd have no more than five or six good sized fish, probably five would be more prudent, none exceeding about a foot at adult size in your tank. You could add a few smaller fish, but I'd limit the larger ones to no more than five or six, and consider temperaments when picking the mix.

Puffers:
The spiny box puffer will stay more reasonable sized (10" or so) than the porc, which can get pretty huge. Dog faced puffers are also a good choice for that sized tank.

Triggers:
I know you want a clown trigger, but I think you will run into issues of aggression and size. Could you be content with a Rhinecanthus trigger (like a picasso or Assassi) that has personality, color, attitude, but is a little mellower and stays at about a foot long? Mellower yet and in the right size range as well are blue throat triggers.

Tangs:
I'd stay away from the really big ones (sailfin, Naso) and the tricky ones (PBT, clown) and the ones with extreme attitude (Sohal). Personally, I like mimic tangs, but there are a lot of nice ones that are reasonable sized to choose from.

Lionfish:
Different folks have different experiences, but you do take a risk keeping a lion with puffers and triggers. Just sayin'.

Eel:
Even if you were able to find a ribbon eel that would eat, don't they need a mellower tank to thrive? I've never kept one, just asking. If you want an eel that is fairly moderately priced, out a lot, and not TOO aggressive, consider the Brazilian dragon moray. I have one, and like it a lot. They get around 2 or 2.5 feet. I also have a large zebra moray I have had many years. It's a great eel, but not out that much and doesn't compete well with my fish or the dragon moray. I have to stick feed that one when he pokes his head out of the rocks. Note, the BDM eel may not be safe with smaller fish. If you want to keep smaller fish, you may have to limit yourself to eels like zebra, snowflake or banded (primarily crustacean eaters).

Here's a nice image of a BDM from the Atlantis Aquarium web site. (BTW, I paid around $200 for mine from LA Diver's Den):

Harlequin Tusk:
One of the best fish, ever. Will not get too big for your tank. Gorgeous and worth the money.

I'd stay away from the Coris wrasse, they get too big, though they are beautiful, both as juveniles and adults. I think you need a sand bed for these.

This is what I'd put in that tank:

-Harlequin tuskfish
-Assassi triggerfish (or picasso)
-a colorful Dogface puffer (there are some unusual color morphs)
-Brazilian dragon moray or smaller crustacean eater (snowflake, banded) if you want smaller fish
-Mimic tang (A pyroferus) - they stay pretty small and have great finnage and are beautiful as adults and juveniles & great attitude
-maybe try a lionfish (not volitans, one of the medium ones)

Have fun, planning the stock list is one of the best parts of setting up a new and larger tank.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11324887#post11324887 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD


Puffers:
The spiny box puffer will stay more reasonable sized (10" or so) than the porc, which can get pretty huge. Dog faced puffers are also a good choice for that sized tank.

Harlequin Tusk:
One of the best fish, ever. Will not get too big for your tank. Gorgeous and worth the money.

I'd stay away from the Coris wrasse, they get too big, though they are beautiful, both as juveniles and adults. I think you need a sand bed for these.

Diodon holacanthus rarely get any bigger than 9-10 inches even in the ocean. I remember this coming up with Puffer Queen here once and even she said on all her dives, she had not seen one bigger then about 10". Diodon hystrix would be a terrible Porcupine to keep in a 125G but they are not as commonly sold...as far as I know. The Diodons are also not nearly as thick as Arothron's who even at a foot seem incredibly huge because they are often 5 inches thick!

Coris Wrasse are listed at max 14" I believe but again will not reach that in an aquarium. I think mine is about full grown at 11" or so. I don't see why this would be a big problem for a "thin" fish in a 125G. And yes they prefer sand as they burrow.

 

[DamnPepShrimp]

That eel is crazy looking, looks more like a snake, curled up ready to attack! Very cool!

 

[Osmotic Shock]

MrSquid I recently set up a All Glass 95 wavefront as a FOWLR. It's a great looking tank but you would probably be better off with the 125 for the fish you want.I have the Megaflow 3 sump which is what fit under the stand. It is OK, just wish it was bigger.I hava a ETSS reef devil skimmer which works great. No ozone or UV. I also went with T5 lighting.

LisaD that is a GREAT list. If I set up another FOWLER that would be it!

 

[MrSquid]

Thanks for the thoughts so far. I was already sold on the 125 as I typed that - like the subject says, I was just thinking out loud. Same with the stock list - I know I won't be able to do all those, just wanted to give some direction on what fish I like (in a very broad sense).

Clowns really hit a huge size from juvie in captivity? And no Sohal.... Lisa, you're breaking my heart.

Thanks for the great info here from everyone. I appreciate it all! I'm an info hound - I'm ready to order the tank/stand/canopy but will be piecing the rest together on my own. Will be reading the crap out of info available for any goods I have my eye on - and the same goes for fish selection once I get the gear selected.

 

[JustinReef]

With a FOWLR, I would also really invest a good chunk of your budget in a skimmer and either UV or ozone. I started by thinking that a decent skimmer around $300 would be good enough, instead of spending about $200 more at the time for a really good skimmer. Well not top of the line but really good. I have now ended up buying that better skimmer as well because the decent one was not cutting it. I now have a ATI BubbleMaster 200 on my 130G and even though I have just set it up, already I couldn't be happier. You really see the difference right away when you set up a good skimmer and for heavily stocked FOWLR's that is so important.

I also think UV or ozone is great for keeping disease to a minimum. Since I started using ozone, I have never had a disease in the tank, not to mention the water is way clearer and way way less algae.

Just things I think are the most important part of keeping a FOWLR. I have seen severely overstocked FOWLR tanks that look amazing and are very healthy because they have the right equipment and I can tell you from experience that I have had understocked FOWLR tanks with bad equipment and had nothing but problems. For someone like me, who is going to end up overstocking a tank a bit no matter what, I need things like a big skimmer, UV, Ozone. I never understood why people set up FOWLR tanks so differently from reef tanks besides maybe the lighting. I am just also in the process of setting up a calcium reactor for my FOWLR because I want my coraline to continue to grow fast and I also have a few kinds of macro algae that need steady calcium levels.

Good luck!

 

[LisaD]

justinpsmith is right on about getting good equipment, especially a great skimmer. I'm also a huge fan of refugiums for nutrient export. I haven't used ozone or UV, so I can't comment much on those... my approach tends to be pretty low tech - lots of rock, shallow sand bed, refugium, best skimmer I can manage...

I know I won't be able to do all those, just wanted to give some direction on what fish I like (in a very broad sense).

Clowns really hit a huge size from juvie in captivity? And no Sohal.... Lisa, you're breaking my heart.

MrSquid, I haven't kept clowns to adult size, but I had a smaller one, and before it reached 4 inches, it was terrorizing my other fish and growing fast. Someone with long term clown trigger experience would be better to weigh in, but my understanding is they get quite big, and I have seen them get pretty aggressive, even at smaller sizes. I get the feeling you are going to want to fill your tank, so you will need to pay attention to temperaments. Clown triggers are gorgeous fish. I like undulateds too (and they stay smaller) but I would only keep one in a tank by itself, because of the aggressive temperament. You could certainly give it a try, there are people who have tanks with a mix. You should talk to danorth. He has combined some of the fish you like in a similar sized tank.

I don't have Sohal experience, but from what people I know have posted about them, I'm not sure you want to keep one in a 125 with a lot of other fish.

It's good to know what the person giving you advice has actually kept in their tanks. I've kept the following larger aggressives in my tanks over the years. This is not a complete list of what I kept/keep, just includes fish comparable to what you list, I can let you know my personal experiences with these fish:

moray eels - zebra, snowflake, black-edged, Brazilian dragon moray
not really an eel - green wolf eel blenny

wrasses - saddle wrasse, Australian harlequin tuskfish, Diana's hogfish

triggers - blue throat, Hawaiian pink tail, Indian trigger, niger trigger, picasso trigger

lionfish - dwarf fuzzy, dwarf zebra, Fu Manchu, blue fin

puffers - dogface puffer, golden puffer, smaller puffers

tangs - kole, yellow, mimic, Atlantic blue, Thompson's, Naso

foxface/rabbitfish - magnificent foxface, blue spotted rabbitfish

angelfish - flame, coral beauty, Fischer's, lemonpeel, bicolor, emperor, Koran, black velvet, LaMarck's

grouper-type fish - soap fish (Rypticus), black tip grouper

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but that's it off the top of my head. You are doing the right thing, researching ahead of time. Get as many informed opinions as you can, so then you can make the best choice for you.

 

[LisaD]

oh, and for the Red Coris, I have to agree with justinpsmith, good choice if you have a sand bed. I thing I was mixing it up with another Coris species that gets quite large. I usually pick just one wrasse per aggressive tank, and it's going to be an Australian Harlequin tusk. That's not to say they wouldn't get along, HTs are pretty mellow, for wrasses.

Here's a great article:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/wrasses/coris/gaimard.htm

WWM is a really good source for adult aquarium size and species characteristics. I trust them pretty much over any other hobbiest source for size information.

 

[MrSquid]

And it keeps getting better. I'm all about quality equipment. I'm a firm believer in that if I'm going to spend the $$$ once, it's going to be right the first time.

I have enough past experience to know that I want to go UV and ozone. And know that a quality skimmer is a must. Thanks tons for the recommendations. (while I have lots of past experience, I've been out of it for about 13 years - so TONS has changed since then)

I like the refugium idea (as I noted in the original post) - if I go with live rock, I'm going to go this route.

One question comes to mind...what do you guys use for a cleanup crew in a predator tank?

 

[MrSquid]

The 125 is official. I ordered it this evening. The tank/stand/canopy will be here Monday. Time to start piecing together the rest...

 

[jda]

Get a huge sump. I like 75G for a minimum, but that might not fit under your stand. Bigger sumps mean bigger skimmers and more room to add on.

I grow cheato in a 75G fuge hooked up to my 210G fowlr. I remove about 4-5 buckets of it about every 3 months. This helps a lot and the 75G make a nice place to get new fish acclimated and agressively eating. You will need to supplement iron for algae in your fuge to grow consistently. I recommend any size of a fuge.

I use mexican turbos for cleanup. Even my large triggers and gunea fowl puffer could not dislodge them. They learn to come out at night and after a day or so, the new fish quit even trying to hassle them. I have some in my FOWLR for year (probably 3+) and they are getting big. If you do keep inverts, then you have to be careful with water quality and keep the NO3 and PO4 low as well as the calcium and alk to NSW levels.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11328883#post11328883 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
oh, and for the Red Coris, I have to agree with justinpsmith, good choice if you have a sand bed. I thing I was mixing it up with another Coris species that gets quite large. I usually pick just one wrasse per aggressive tank, and it's going to be an Australian Harlequin tusk. That's not to say they wouldn't get along, HTs are pretty mellow, for wrasses.

Here's a great article:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/wrasses/coris/gaimard.htm

WWM is a really good source for adult aquarium size and species characteristics. I trust them pretty much over any other hobbiest source for size information.

Yeah I think if you have two Wrasses, trying something like a Harlequin Tusk and a Coris is a safe bet. They are both pretty mellow. You just want to stay away from Dragon Wrasse or something like that if you want other Wrasse in the tank because they are sooooo aggressive. My Coris Wrasse is kept with a Flasher Wrasse and so far so good. But like a lot of FOWLR tanks, I am keeping them together knowing that down the road I may have to make adjustments and remove one. Thats important I think too. As long as you have a big enough tank, you can try things out that don't always work but you have to be willing to move fish to another tank if they do not get along. If your not willing to do so (I see people all the time who are not) then you have to be very careful and pick "safe" fish for the tank from the beginning. Because in the past, I have had a hard time giving up fish once I get them, I do not really take many chances anymore with the fish I mix (besides those Wrasse and thats not a big risk I don't think) and I personally just go with whats been pretty much proven to work. Like I said before too, I used to keep bigger fish in my 220G and I had to downgrade to a 130G but I actually like the movement and color of this smaller tank with smaller fish!

You will do fine though since you have lots of experience from the past and are doing your research. You also mentioned buying the right equipment the first time and I have to agree 100%. Its so nice to be happy with your skimmer and not feel the need to constantly be looking for a new better one. Im finally at that point with most of my equipment and its great.