This is driving me insane!!!!!

LouH

LouH
About two months ago I experienced excellent growth from the Acropora and Montipora in my tank. It was so good in fact, that I actually started to believe that I had this reef tank thing down. To my dismay I watched one Montipora plate start to lose color and then tissue began to die. Then the same thing happened to another Montipora, but a third Montipora kept growing. After a couple of weeks the same issue befell the third montipora plate. Over time all of their color has faded to a light lime green. I'll watch as tissue grows back over the exposed skeleton, it holds for a week or so, but then falls to another recession event. This grow/die cycle is currently ongoing in my tank with these Monti, and it has started to affect one of my Acropora as well. The tissue edge on the Montipora is a light purple color, while on the Acropora, it is a bleaching of an area followed by tissue necrosis. What is going on here?

My system specs are as follows (sorry, but it is long).

My current system has been up and running for one year now. Actually, that isn't entirely true. The system begain its life in 2006, but it had to be broken down and moved two times before making it to its current location. All of the live rock and sand, and many of the invertebrates are from the initial set-up over three years ago.
Fish in the system consist of the following:

- Yellow Tang
- Six Lined Wrasse
- Watchman Goby
- 2 Damselfish
- 3 Bar Gobies

Non-Cnidarian life consists of the following:

- 1 Crocea Clam
- 2 Tiger Tail Cucumbers (one split)
- 1 Pink and Black Cucumber
- 2 Black Cucumbers
- 1 Blue Linckia Sea Star
- 2 Sand Sifting Sea Stars
- 3 Emerald Crabs
- 2 Blue Legged Hermit Crabs
- 2 Scarlet Hermit Crabs
- 2 Halloween Hermit Crabs
- numerous Trochus,Nassarius, and Ceriths Snails
- several bundles of Chaetomorpha (refugium and sump)
- naturally occuring serpent stars, amphipods, feather dusters,worms, etc.

Cnidarians include the following:


Stony Corals:

- several Acropora species
- several Montipora species
- 1 Seriatopora
- 3 Pocillopora
- 1 Stylophora
- 1 Anchor Coral
- 1 Torch Coral colony
- 1 Favites(I think)
- 2 Trachyphyllia


Soft Corals:

- 1 Xenia colony
- 3 Sinularia
- 2 Toadstool Leathers (silver dollar diameter)
- 1 Leather or Finger Leather??? (a fairly big coral)
- 3 Kenyan Tree corals
- Green Star Polyp colonies here and there
- 6-8 Zooanthids scattered here and there
- 6-8 Parazooanthids


System Hardware

Tank and Sumps:

117 gallon tank measuring 7'x18"x18"
2 sumps
1 15 gallon refugium
1 remote 20 gallon Brute garbage can deep sandbed (12" aragonite depth)
Taking away the volume occupied by rocks and hardware, I estimate the system's water capacity to be about 100 gallons.

Water Moving/Treatment Hardware:

2 Eheim 1260s serving as return pumps w/48" of head pressure (635 gph @ 0 head. I'm guessing no less than 500 gph/pump based on performance curve)
1 Mag Drive 7 circulating water from the deep sand bed to the refugium.
2 Tunze 6100 Powerheads run off of a Tunze controller. Pumps run from 1/2 - 3/4 power. Flow is cycled back and forth every 5-10 seconds by the controller.
1 ASM G2 Skimmer
RODI system to treat tap water. TDS readings always kept below 6 ppm.
1 Korallin C-1502 Calcium Reactor. Manual adjustments are made as needed.
Pinpoint pH Monitor to measure reactor effluent.
Paristolic dosing pump for evaporative water make-up (float in sump activation)

Lighting Hardware:

2 250 MH HQI Lamps Driven by a Sunlight Supply Dual Ballast (my most durable lighting hardware to date).
1 150 MH HQI Lamp Driven by a PFO Ballast
All MH lamps are 10,000 K, and all are replaced every 12 months.
The pendants are placed in the following order over the tank: 250W - 150W - 250W
2 72" UV Lighting Co. Super Actinic VHO lamps driven by an IceCap 660 ballast (installed last month)
The Actinics run for 12 hours a day, and the MH lamps are on for 10 hours per day.
The refugium and the main sump have the requisite Lights of America 65W 6700K compact fluorescent fixture. The one over the refugium is on when the tank's lights are on, and the sump's light is on a reverse photoperiod. Both lights grow Chaeto.

Water Chemistry/Quality Measured Today and Nearly Always:

Salinity: 1.026 SG
Morning pH - 8.17
Evening pH - 8.32
Ca - 400 ppm
dKH - 9
Mg - 1350
PO4 - 0
NO3 - 0
Temperature - 78.5 F + - 0.5 degrees (Medusa Controller, fan cooling, filimant heaters)
Iodide - 0.0025 ppm (This was a new measurement for my system, so I have no history for trending or troubleshooting purposes).


Husbandry and Maintenance Techniques:

15-20 gallon water change weekly with a synthetic salt mix (Instant Ocean w/RODI mixed for 2 days min before water change. Salinity and temp. are dead on).
1" sand bed in tank is siphoned at least every other water change to mix up/suspend organic matter which is dumped with the wastewater.
Deep sand bed surface is siphoned every 6 months to remove settled detritus.
Sumps and refugium bottoms are siphoned as needed to remove detritus.
Fish are fed Formula II every evening. All pellets are eaten.
Corals are fed (I started to do this in the last 2 months) 2-3 times week with ZoPlan or Coral Frenzy.
The protein skimmer cup is removed every two or three days and cleaned out.
All pumps have spares which allows me to take them apart and soak them in vinegar over the course of a week or two. This gets them very clean.
I do not run mechanical filters of any kind.

If you actually read to this point, thank you for taking a genuine interest. Now, can someone tell me what is going on here? I'm out of ideas.

Lou :mad2:
 
This sounds almost exactly what happened to me a few years ago. What I did was remove the Montipora at first sign of recession and placed it in a FOWLR tank in one of those net breeding thingies. It went back and forth until it eventually died. The rest of my corals didn't seem to get effected.

My thoughts are disease or extreme stress being caused by something not testable (like poisons or other chemicals). I would run carbon and a pad at the very least. I haven't really kept up with advancements in coral care though - so no help there :(
 
Sorry to hear about your monti's Lou. You have sure given a very detailed description of your tank and parameters and nothing to me looks out of the ordinary with the exception of no carbon mentioned. If that was an over sight, then my self I have no clue what to tell you given that they were fine and growing for months and then just started to receed like that.

On the other hand, if you don't use any type of carbon, depending on how close some of your softies are to the montis, you might be having a bit of a chemical warfare going on. Probably a stretch on my part, but for now it is the only thing I can come up with.
 
where the tissue is receding is there a white or black band? it the place of necrosis followed by slime algae? it could be white band disease. white band is a form of necrosis it is just a lot slower than rtn. they think that it has to do with a bacterial infection, but still not too sure where it comes from or what causes it.
 
I didn't read all of your post, but scanned through it. I didn't see that you looked for pests. There are red bugs that eat acros and nudis that eat montiporas, be sure you look these pests up and look for them, they will devastate your livestock rapidly. I had problems with all my acros till i treated for red bugs and everything is doing great now. Last week i found Monti nudis eating my Montis, so i chopped up all my montis and got rid of any infected parts (left with very small frags, but at least i know they are pest free, for now. I keep a watch for them everytime i look at my tank now.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15273776#post15273776 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by VacavilleFC3S
it's your alkalinity

Why do you say that? 9 for dKH is fine.




I would take a closer look at the montis, since it seems like those are the only ones being affected, might be nudis.
 
I agree that possible coral warfare with your leathers is a possibility. Leathers produce toxins that acropora don't like. RTN and STN doesn't seem to have a clear explanation. I would remove the leathers to a different tank and see if this helps.
 
This is almost what happened to a fellow reefer of mine, his monties died (digitata, capricornis, encrusting, etc), they lost color and stn'd, he found out that his system had a potassium deficiency which made them really fragile and pale, soon after they died....check it out you might be surprised

another thing to look for are predators (like someone stated earlier), they will eat and kill your monties.....

disease, i have never heard off white band disease before, maybe a google is in order....

i know that everybody has different opinions on what to do, this hobby is different for everybody, so we are just trying to help you....good luck and keep us posted

sana
 
I had an issue with my orange and purple monti caps starting to fade, and all my numbers checked out good.

Out of "desperation" I did a series of 30% water changes in a week (30% every day or two) and they colored back up in a week or two after that. Now, two months later, they look better than ever.


My suspicion is that some nutrient was depleted that I can't test for.


And as Sanababit mentioned, potassium could be the issue.
 
It looks like 15-20 gals a week would keep potassium and other trace elements that we never test for in tact, but you never know, it might not hurt to test as some of the others have stated.
 
Thanks for all of the insignt guys. In response to your posts, I can comment on the following:

1. My primary focus is on alleopathy with the soft corals. I might have to remove them.

2. I've seen no evidence of "red bugs" or other predators/parasites.

3. I run about 4 oz. of carbon (dry) and change it out every 2 or 3 weeks.

4. I'm trying to do big water changes. My goal is to turn over 100% of the tank's volume in a two week period of time.

5. I borrowed a light meter from a fellow reefer, and I found that his tank has 2-4 times the light intensity as mine (location dependant), and my Monti frags came out of his tank. Perhaps they are light starved? His tank has two skylights over the tank and a 1000W MH bulb. During mid day, the light meter measured near full strength sunlight over his tank.

I'm going to lower the pendants over the next couple of weeks to get surface levels as close to his tank's lighting intensity as is possible.

That's about where I'm at. Anyone have any other ideas?
 
1. I've never encounter anyone telling me that their 110gal tank had to be sps only or lps only. Yes there are some allelopathy going on, but unless you have some uncommon unknown species doing weird things, mixed isnt usually a problem. Plus you are running plenty of carbon to take care of that. Take a look at people's tanks, I would say 90% or more are mixed reef. Mine included.

2. Just because you havn't seen predators/parasites don't mean they're not there. Take some macro pics and let others inspect your problem corals. Monti nudis do not like light, they will only munch on the underside of the coral or inside a hole where it's dark.

4. If your problem is chemistry, then yes water changes will certainly help to get back to square one. But if your problem is parasite, no amount of water change will get rid of your problem.

5. 2x250w plus 1x150w mh is more than plenty for Montis for a 7' tank that's only 18" tall. Even if your using all 20k bulbs. Provided the bulbs are good.

Sorry you are having problems with your corals, it's frustrating and I certainly have been there myself. With persistence you will find the answer. HTH.
 
Thanks for your insight aquariumclown.

I've read a lot of information on why you should not mix SPS corals with leathers, and I know some successful SPS reefers who recommend that you shouldn't do it. Then again, look at this month's Tank of the Month. There is a huge leather in that tank, and the SPS look good. I see way too much conflicting information in this area. That's why I'm considering the removal of my soft corans. If they aren't in the tank, then they are one less variable in the troubleshooting process.

The only thing in my chemistry that was off was Iodide. I'm going to start dosing Lugols to remedy that situation. Otherwise, everythig else looks great.

Howe do you identify the parasites mentioned?

I'll post pics tonight when I get home from work.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15276397#post15276397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LouH
.........

The only thing in my chemistry that was off was Iodide. I'm going to start dosing Lugols to remedy that situation. Otherwise, everythig else looks great.

Howe do you identify the parasites mentioned?

I'll post pics tonight when I get home from work.

What salt mix to you use? If you use a name brand, and do regular water changes you should have enough iodide/iodine in your tank. Most test kits (( unless you get some high end ones )) aren't all that accurate when it comes to iodide/iodine. It is fairly easy to over dose Lugols, and might cause more issues.

As for IDs, here is a search I did on montis and nudis

http://reefcentral.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=11016688&sortby=&sortorder=
 
I don't know about other people. But I had a huge Sarcophyton ( toadstool leather). And I had a few bleachings. I have removed it and haven't had a problem. And I was running carbon in a reactor the whole time. So "chemical warfare" is a very real possibility, IMO.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15276397#post15276397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LouH
Thanks for your insight aquariumclown.

I've read a lot of information on why you should not mix SPS corals with leathers, and I know some successful SPS reefers who recommend that you shouldn't do it. Then again, look at this month's Tank of the Month. There is a huge leather in that tank, and the SPS look good. I see way too much conflicting information in this area. That's why I'm considering the removal of my soft corans. If they aren't in the tank, then they are one less variable in the troubleshooting process.

The only thing in my chemistry that was off was Iodide. I'm going to start dosing Lugols to remedy that situation. Otherwise, everythig else looks great.

Howe do you identify the parasites mentioned?

I'll post pics tonight when I get home from work.

Your right, it wouldn't hurt to remove your leathers. I'm just pointing out that it may not be your problem.

Water changes should always be your #1 option to get back to square one. Provided your salt water source is good.
 
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