Thoughts on a pod-dense system

[Steve_Zissou]

Basically, I'm interested in setting up a ~80gal reef system that is all (or nearly all) live-fed with copepods. My main reason for pursuing this is because I really like things that need to eat constantly (seahorses, mandarins) but I also have a life and want the flexibility of going on small vacations.

My vision is to have my 50 gal display lightly-stocked with some combination of pipefish, seahorses, and mandarins. Most of the space in this display would be taken up by mangroves and macro algae. I'd reserve a small island in the middle for some colorful zoas/sps

I will try to devote as much space as possible in the 30gal sump to growing cheato. I have a reef octopus skimmer, but I'm considering going without it and using a small bio-reactor or ATS, or both.

But that's not all! I want to make sure this system can support a LOT of copepods/amphipods. I've done some reading, and it sounds like growing copepod cultures in 5 gallon buckets with some phytoplankton isn't too difficult.


My biggest questions/concerns are:

1.) How big of a pod-culture system would I need? If I want to keep say... 3 pipefish and 2 mandarins in this system, would one 5gallon culture bucket be enough? 2 buckets? 3? 4? at a certain point, I think phyto-feast would get quite expensive..

2.) What if I wanted to leave the system unattended for three days, would dumping a bunch of pods into the sump suffice?

3.) Can you have too many pods in a tank? If there was a mass pod-pocolypse, would there be a significant ammonia spike?

Thanks!

 

[Fishbulb2]

Hi Steve,

I've been breeding an over abundance of copepods and amphipods in both my tank and a 5 gallon bucket now to try to keep a mandarin goby alive that I unfortunately bought for a tank too small (~40g). The good news is that it is super super easy to do and the mandarin has greatly increased in size and adapted itself to taking frozen food without a problem. Overall, I feel I've had great luck with this experiment. Don't waste your time with phytofeast as it is very dilute and thus expensive for the amount of algae you actually get. You want to get the very thick paste which will go a long way. For me, I've been using an Isochysis paste that I got from brineshrimpdirect. It's sold in a much smaller volume than some other vendors and is thus more affordable. A 125 ml bottle has a refrigerator life of 3 months and you will not waste much in that time. It's much safer and cheaper than getting an entire liter and much more cost effective than getting hobby grade diluted algae.

Here is a pic of my bucket. It will be clear within 24 hours. I put filter pads in it and that is where the pods live.

and

I also harvest them from my filter socks by just hanging the socks upside down in a bucket.

Honestly though, it's such overkill and hasn't been necessary for me. I simply have a 1hr feed time on my tank where the return pump is off and I normally feed the fish. I also add in A LOT of the Isochrysis past (probably a full milliliter) and the water turns a nice green. After an hour the return pump turns back on and the skimmer pulls out the excess algae. Despite the mandarin in the small tank, it is teaming with copepods all over the glass and when I shine a flashlight in the tank at night, amphipods swim in every direction and just swarm. My SPS are doing nicely as well and with vodka dosing, I still have 0 nitrates. So I would just get a much better, cheaper, more concentrated algae paste if I were you and just dose the tank directly. I would also start this before adding the fish or supplement the fish with brine shrimp until the copepod population takes off. It took mine about a month.

Hope this helps,
FB

 

[Fishbulb2]

Oh and add a small 25-50watt heater in the bucket and aerate it. I change the water on it once a week when I have old seawater from my aquarium.

Again, super easy.

FB

 

[staindsoul]

sorry to jack the thread, fishbulb is the 40 gallon really too small for a mandarin? I was hoping to keep one eventually, 37 gallon for me/w20 gallon sump. Or would i have to look at breeding pods also?

 

[PMc]

This is a fascinating topic. So are you saying that you can support a population of pods in the tank without the bucket? It appears you don't have a sump but it seems that would be an ideal place to do this as well. Do you buy a pod culture as a starter or do you depend on whatever is in the live rock? Thanks

Mc

 

[Fishbulb2]

StainedSoul,

yeah I think a 37 is cutting it close. Most people say around 50ish should be the minimum. FWIW, there's no telling either that mine will make it. He's 4 months in now but who knows in a year. Definitely though, if he croaks, it's not from a lack of pods. Perhaps they aren't the exact right pods, but whatever is in there, there is a ton of it.

PMc,
Yeah, I think the bucket and fuge are really unnecessary. They can't hurt but the tank itself is loaded. Also, I never really take them out of the bucket. I could, but it's just too much work. I just instead dose the Isocysis heavily into the tank and turn off the filtration for an hour. That seems to be fine. Right now I would say the limiting factor on the pods population has become the micro algae and the mandarin is hardly a factor anymore. I use marco rocks and it has lots of places deep in the rock for the pods to hide and reproduce.

Whether you use a refugium, bucket, or breed them in the tank, you simply need a pod population that can outbreed the pace at which your fish eat. If your fish consume them faster than the pods reproduce, then the pods will crash and the fish will die. That's regardless of where you initially stick the pods. I seeded my tank with pods from reefs2go. They are a sponsor here and the product was VERY impressive. I spilt the order in half. Half went into the bucket and half went into the tank with the lights out. I then fed both heavily with Iso and the rest is history. Note too though, that I did supplement the goby with baby brine shrimp for a month while the pods reproduced and he was exposed to frozen food. I think that first month of cross exposure is crucial.

FWIW too, I'm not advocating this method AT ALL as I don't think people should be buying mandarins unless the fish really has a chance to make it. I'm just posting this info because I don't hear it often and it's worth repeating. Concentrated algae mixes (particularly larger algae like Isochrysis) plus pods in a tank with rock will result in an absurd amount of pods. I think the key is just to add enough to begin with and use a real algae mix. Not something diluted. I started with the 1000 pods from r2g.

HTH,
FB

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Wow, thanks for the excellent write up FB!

I've stumbled across that write up on brine shrimp direct about copepod culturing before, but I neglected to notice that they actually sell that phyto paste. The culturing article mentioned something about freezing the paste into cubes for extended shelf life. Have you ever done this?

I think I'll experiment with dosing phyto-paste straight into the tank, but part of me cringes thinking about all that water going green. I guess I'll start off small, and then see what the skimmer can handle.

Maybe it's still overkill, but I plan to get about 12 gallons (distributed amongst 3-4 containers) of copepod cultures going. This way, I'd have a good 4-5 isolated systems supporting pods in case anything goes wrong. Ideally, I'd like to get this tank supporting 4-5 copepod-hungry critters like pipefish and mandarins, so I'm guessing I'd need all the pods I can get.

Does this pass the smell test though? 5 pipefish/seahorses/mandarins in a ~80 gallon system? has anyone done something like that?

 

[India]

That seems a bit sparse to me...you will have to make efforts to target feed as they seem to feed better when more concentrated...

 

[Fishbulb2]

Wow, thanks for the excellent write up FB!

I've stumbled across that write up on brine shrimp direct about copepod culturing before, but I neglected to notice that they actually sell that phyto paste. The culturing article mentioned something about freezing the paste into cubes for extended shelf life. Have you ever done this?

I think I'll experiment with dosing phyto-paste straight into the tank, but part of me cringes thinking about all that water going green. I guess I'll start off small, and then see what the skimmer can handle.

Maybe it's still overkill, but I plan to get about 12 gallons (distributed amongst 3-4 containers) of copepod cultures going. This way, I'd have a good 4-5 isolated systems supporting pods in case anything goes wrong. Ideally, I'd like to get this tank supporting 4-5 copepod-hungry critters like pipefish and mandarins, so I'm guessing I'd need all the pods I can get.

Does this pass the smell test though? 5 pipefish/seahorses/mandarins in a ~80 gallon system? has anyone done something like that?

Hi Steve,

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of experience with most of those fish so I can't say anything for sure. Is there any chance the pipefish or seahorses will take frozen mysid? Or live baby brine shrimp? My theory is that with my mandarin, he just needed about a month to figure it out. I got him through that month with baby brine and the copepods that were reproducing in the tank. Now I see him actively eating the frozen mysis shrimp without a problem. If your five fish have a chance at eating some frozen then I say go for it. Also, you could always start with just one or two fish and add more if you continue to see pods and good health.

Also, don't cringe about the green. Everything will be fine. Note that I usually don' get the tank as green as the bucket that i've shown. It's just a good slight tint but definitely clouds the water. I don't think you'll grow enough pods if you just barely add a little algae. I think it's the concentration that matters and not the total number of algal cells you add. If it's not dense enough, the pods will likely struggle to get it. I will take pictures of the tank tomorrow before, during, and after a, algae feed so you can see how tinted it gets. Hopefully that helps.

You cannot freeze Isochrysis. There are very few algae you can freeze. Nannochlopsis (sp?) is one that you can and Isochyrsis cannot. It is glycerol free too. Also be aware that photo-feast is not nano, it is a brown diatom algae I believe. This is what reed mariculture recommends to feed to their tigger pods. Isochrysis is also a brown diatom algae which is why I chose it. It works great. Tetraselmis might also be a good choice and that I do have frozen. I have also frozen nanno from reed. Freezing algae that will tolerate is great and I have had good luck with it. I buy 15 ml falcon tubes and just aliquot into those. Then I thaw one a week in the refrigerator and use them to dose the tank. But with the small bottles from brine shrimp direct, this isn't necessary since I use them within their expiration date. When I use to order the liter from Reeds, it was essential to freeze it so I didn't waste it. So to recap, for pods I would use Isochrysis and not freeze it or tetraselmis and freeze it you really want.

FB

(sorry for long winded post)

 

[Fishbulb2]

I guess I could add that if greening (or browning with Iso) is really bothersome to you, you could have a refugium that you completely brown out like my bucket for a few hours a day. You could get a higher concentration with a lower volume since it's in a small refugium. Just have a separate pump that controls flow into the fuge and turn it off when you add the iso. Then the pods will get nice and fed and when the timer kicks back on, the pods can make their way to the display.

I prefer to dose my display. I've never had any luck whatsoever with any SPS in the past and this is the first tank I've ever seen positive results on. I can actually see growth on a weekly basis where in the past I've never seen anything except withering away. Same tank and equipment. I don't know if it has anything to do with the phtyo feeding but it certainly isn't hurting anything that i'm aware of.

FB

 

[JHawlz9989]

This is a great thread. I've been looking for ways to boost my pod population without having to go through the process of culturing more phytoplankton than I need for a 20 gallon.

Do you have any experiencing feeding the isochrysis sp. to other filter feeders? Specifically feather duster worms, coco worms, and tridacnid clams?

Tanks for the great write up.

Josh

 

[Fishbulb2]

I plan to get about 12 gallons (distributed amongst 3-4 containers) of copepod cultures going.

I think this is great. Just try to get a heater for each system. I recommend the Tetra 50W 78degree ones. They actually have no adjustment knobs on them but they keep the temp right at 78. You don't need a heater to grow pods but it will make it easier on them when you transfer them to your tank and the stable predictable temps will give you a more stable predictable production rate. Thus when you harvest consistently, you should have more stability overall. I keep my cultures in the basement and added the heaters helped.

I would strongly recommend two other things. Avoid 10g tanks. They are cheap and attractive but heavy (thus hard to clean) and hard to plumb. You really want lightweight plastic 5g buckets that you can move, scrub, and clean out or bleach if you need to. Also, I am desparately wanting to find the time to drill in a uni-seal with drain for my bucket. Ideally, it would go right over a utility sink and then I could use a collection net or sieve (brine shimp direct has a great 50um one that I own) to collect the pods into. Think ahead about how you can make this all easier on yourself. You do NOT want to have to stress out about maintaining a reef tank plus five other tanks just for this purpose. So keep things light, cheap, small, and have access to a drain nearby to dispose of the culture water. When I get my uni-seal in, i'll have to post a pic but the key is to keep it all convenient, which is why I now just dose the tank directly. :lol2:

FB

 

[Fishbulb2]

Do you have any experiencing feeding the isochrysis sp. to other filter feeders? Specifically feather duster worms, coco worms, and tridacnid clams?

Tanks for the great write up.

Josh

No unfortunately I don't. I've never had luck with feather dusters in the past because I think my pigmy angels always eat them. I would LOVE to get one. I'm sure they would love it. I know I sound like an add for them but brine shimp direct also sells a product that they call Tahitian blend. It's a mix of most commercially available phytos. So even in the case where those filter feeders might not eat Iso, I'm sure they would eat something in that blend. I ended up just buying a lot of individual algae pastes from them and froze what could be frozen and just ripped through the Iso. I loved the Iso so much that I'll likely continue to dose it. FWIW, they don't recommend using anything with glycerol (a cryoprotectant for freezing) when culturing. This is because it will get concentrated in the rotifers or pods. Tahitian blend has glycerol so it can be frozen but that's what made me steer clear of it. They say it's fine for tank dosing because the glycerol will be diluted. i figured I'd just buy the nanno, tetraselmis, and Iso separated since they aren't expensive in these small quantities.

FB

 

[Fishbulb2]

Sorry for not updating this yesterday like I promised. Work, the debates, you know how it goes.

So here is a picture of the copepod/amphipod bucket exactly 24 hrs after the feeding. Notice that you can now see down to the bottom of the bucket and the heater. So the pods are using all of that algae up within a day.

Now here are pictures of the tank immediately before dosing Isochrysis directly into the display, right after dosing, and one hour after the return pump and skimmer come back on.

So yeah, the dosing is dense but not nearly as much as the bucket. Also, I think it's denser than you could ever get with Phyto-feast without burning a hole in your wallet. I know it looks bad and cloudy in the tank but nothing seems to be suffering from it at all. And the small RS80 Euroreef has no problem cleaning it up, although it does get nasty.

I say give it a shot. I looks again last night with the lights off and the pods are just swarming over every nook and cranny in the marco rock. My mandarin isn't making any sort of dent in their numbers at all. I've actually run out of Iso today so I will try tetraselmis next week. Please let me know if you want me to bother updating this thread.


FB

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Thanks for those photos FB, sorry I've been away from the computer for a few days.

I think I'm convinced to try some tank dosing. I've done some research about keeping pipefish and seahorses in a tank like this, and pipefish are probably a no go. Apparently they're jumpers, which would not work well with the rimless tank I have.

I'll let you know what my progress is with dosing the Isochysis.

 

[Fishbulb2]

I just thought I'd update this since running out of Iso and switching over to Nanno and Tetraselmis. Overall, I don't think I like the nanno for cultivating the pods or dosing the reef tank directly. It is really hard to skim out and the water stays cloudy for a couple days. That's unlike Iso and Tetraselmis which cleared up in a couple hours max. Also the nanno lingers in the pod bucket for days so I'm not sure how voraciously the pods are consuming it. The Iso and Tetra seem to get eaten in the bucket within a day. So I won't be using the nanno any longer unless I start to cultivate rotifers. The Iso and Tetra both seem great with the advantage of the Tetra being that it can frozen.

HTH,
FB

 

[Mxx]

If you're really committed to this idea I'd run a two refugium system perhaps, which are off-line and connect to each others with pumps on timers. Fuge A would contain a live culture of phytoplankton and periodically would pump a slight bit into Fuge B which would contain the pods. A few hours after being fed with algae Fuge B would turn on a pump to flush water through into the display tank for a while. Pods wouldn't be easy to flush out though. It could all be plumbed as a series of overflows, but is inevitably a bit complicated. Fuge A could be topped off with tank water, but it might be better to use pure water to keep the algae culture from being contaminated, and possibly dosed with nitrates to feed the algae.

 

[India]

I feed in a similar way and welcome the contact! How long do you leave your algae dose in the fuge, and then for how long to you flush thru the system?

I sometimes put the algae in the DT with some Oyster Feast or Reef Bugs...let it stew for an hour, then flush down thru the fuge for at least 2 hrs before restoring filtration...More and more, I resent the filtration! I just love the way a skimmer oxygenates the water...so I'm still hooked.
Sometimes I put the algae in the fuge for an hour, then flush it up thru the tank for a while...I sort of alternate maximum food density...

 

[el chupacabra]

FB

What kind of sand is that in there. It looks like a large grain. I've been looking for a larger grain sand.

 

[Fishbulb2]

Yes, it's a little larger. It was from CaribSea. It's large enough for small amphipods to disappear in it, but the large amphipods still kind of need to dig down in there. Sorry, I can't really give you a mm size right now.

FB