Time for drastic measures?

[Yodeling]

Ok so I recently purchased a mature tank and set it up. A couple weeks later, I started noticing what looked like ich on the hippo tang. I decided to take it slow, do some research and observe things as they progress, thinking it may just dissipate. But, I have to admit I was unprepared for the persistence of this parasite. The hippo has actually mostly cleared up, but the ich has remained on and around his eyes, which worries me. The coral beauty is now also infected, and tonight I I'm seeing a spot on the purple tang's eye. All are well acclimated to the tank and eating well and getting along, but the spots are definitely there. So, begrudgingly, I am now considering some form of treatment.

Here's the situation. First off, an upcoming vacation gives me 6 weeks maximum to treat, which limits my options. I also don't have a big enough QT to safely house all the fish. The DT only has a few corals and a small number of inverts. So I'm leaning towards QTing the corals and inverts and treating the DT with CP. This would be achievable within the allotted timeline and save my fish before I leave. The corals and inverts, I couldn't care less about, I can always get more.

What do you all think? Is there a better option, given the situation/constraints mentioned above? Should I just wait till I get back before starting treatment? Is the ich going to make the tangs blind if I do?

 

[HumbleFish]

Treating the DT with CP sounds like your best option. But on the flip side, going fallow in the DT for 6 weeks would still give you a 95% chance of eradication. And CP or copper treatment only requires 4 weeks. So, those are still some pretty good odds.

But what would make me nervous is dumping all those fish back in the DT after 6 weeks... and then just leaving.

 

[Yodeling]

Thanks for chiming in. Indeed, treating right up against the departure would make me very nervous. I like the 4 week treatment option since it would give me 2 weeks to get everything back to normal using UV/Carbon/WCs. And from what I've read, CP in DT seems like a better option than copper in DT.

I really thought the hippo would just recover once he's settled in, happy, well fed, and full of garlic, but it looks like the ich has different plans.

 

[Rondelet]

You definitely want to treat with CP now. My advice would be to move any and all inverts to a Q tank and let them sit there for a minimum of 8 weeks, preferably with a UV unit attached to the system. Treat the DT with CP at a dose of 10 mg/L for 4 weeks and then start water changes the two weeks before you go holiday. One issue with CP is getting all out of your system. My experience is that even small residual amounts will upset corals and inverts. When you get back continue with a few more water changes and start putting your inverts back, provided they been in a fishless system for 8 weeks minimum, very slowly "“ one a time and observe them to ensure they are not being affected by the CP. What dose rate of CP where you thinking of?

 

[reeferstace]

Your corals and other inverts deserve to have decent living conditions also. They should not be considered "disposable" by a responsible hobbyist.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Thanks for chiming in. Indeed, treating right up against the departure would make me very nervous. I like the 4 week treatment option since it would give me 2 weeks to get everything back to normal using UV/Carbon/WCs. And from what I've read, CP in DT seems like a better option than copper in DT.

I really thought the hippo would just recover once he's settled in, happy, well fed, and full of garlic, but it looks like the ich has different plans.

I'd read the 1st post in Snorvich's ich stickies at the top of the disease forum. You can't eliminate this parasite without knowing its life cycle. The parasite spends much of its time in a state that isn't visible; the white spots you see are not even the actual parasite and not an accurate indicator of ich's presence. The only way to eliminate ich is to kill the parasites while in the free swimming stage and keeping a tank fishless (the longer the better, one of the stickies explains this extremely accurately. ) Ich will die off without a fish host, but it takes time. You cannot kill the parasite while its on/in the fish. The feeding stage of ich buries under the skin, when meds don't reach, and ich loves the gills. Also, your comment on garlic reflects a common myth. Garlic does nothing to cure ich.

 

[Yodeling]

Your corals and other inverts deserve to have decent living conditions also. They should not be considered "disposable" by a responsible hobbyist.

They will be fine most likely. What I meant was I would rather risk putting them into a small QT than 3 tangs.

 

[Yodeling]

You definitely want to treat with CP now. My advice would be to move any and all inverts to a Q tank and let them sit there for a minimum of 8 weeks, preferably with a UV unit attached to the system. Treat the DT with CP at a dose of 10 mg/L for 4 weeks and then start water changes the two weeks before you go holiday. One issue with CP is getting all out of your system. My experience is that even small residual amounts will upset corals and inverts. When you get back continue with a few more water changes and start putting your inverts back, provided they been in a fishless system for 8 weeks minimum, very slowly "“ one a time and observe them to ensure they are not being affected by the CP. What dose rate of CP where you thinking of?

Thanks for the encouragement. I am undecided between 40mg/g or 60mg/g. Some posts say 40 is enough, others, including the article I've read say 60 is optimum. Any advice on the proper dosing would be appreciated.

 

[Yodeling]

MrTuskfish, I will read it for sure. But I'm confused by your comment. Are you saying that the traditional lengthy fallow is the only way to eliminate the parasite? I've read quite a few threads on how CP is effective (even in DT) in killing the parasite with a 4 week treatment. I'll do some more research before I begin.

 

[Rondelet]

Thanks for the encouragement. I am undecided between 40mg/g or 60mg/g. Some posts say 40 is enough, others, including the article I've read say 60 is optimum. Any advice on the proper dosing would be appreciated.

I've been working with CP for some time to determine the best treatment protocol. However, I normally work in mg/L "“ old school habit! The optimal range for treatment, IMO, is 10-15 mg/L, which is equivalent to 38 to 57 mg/gal. Note these are dose rates for CP, i.e., the formulated product, not choroquine base. So 40 to 60 mg/gal should be fine, but I would keep a close eye on the fish and take action if fish become listless, or go off feed with water changes, addition of carbon and/or use of UV to reduce the CP concentration in the water. Having said that, I have no information (read data) on how effective either carbon or UV is at removing CP, but it sounds reasonable to me. I suspect most people tend to overdose somewhat as they underestimate the volume of water displacement caused by rocks and why I recommend 10 mg/L (38 mg/gal), which I have found to be effective. At 20 mg/L (76 mg/gal), a percentage of fish will reactive negatively, sometimes fatally in my experience. So I would say that anything above 60 mg/gal is potentially toxic, which if you think about it doesn't give you much of a therapeutic margin. I've notice that many will say that CP is very safe for fish, but am begining to question how safe it is. While I think if is very effective, it can be toxic if you're not paying attention. What I don't know, and am trying to learn more about, is how long fish can tolerate exposure to therapeuctic dose rates (i.e., those in the 40 mg/gal range), or even sub-therapeutic dose rates. Determining these with any level of confidence is difficult without measuring the actual treatment concentration. As mentioned earlier, one requires a spectrophotometer to do this.

 

[Yodeling]

Thanks for the advice!!! The Advanced Aquarist CP article describes how to estimate the water volume and I plan on using that method, along with precise weighing of the CP, to get the dosage right. I'm also thinking of adding half the dose on first day, and half couple days later in order to prevent a shock to the system. Not sure if it matters but seems safer to me. I now have a stockpile of new SW and going to set up the QT for corals and inverts tonight.

 

[Deinonych]

MrTuskfish, I will read it for sure. But I'm confused by your comment. Are you saying that the traditional lengthy fallow is the only way to eliminate the parasite? I've read quite a few threads on how CP is effective (even in DT) in killing the parasite with a 4 week treatment. I'll do some more research before I begin.

While I wouldn't recommend it except as a last resort, CP can be dosed in the DT provided all the inverts have been removed. Bear in mind that the type of rock you have, and how well established it is, will affect how much die-off you have. You may also get a significant PO4 spike after dosing it. My tank was just under a year old, and I started with dry rock, so I didn't see an appreciable die off. I'm not seeing significant PO4 either. My treatment ended almost three weeks ago, and I feel it was successful (no losses, fish showing no signs etc.) There are a couple of other examples of folks treating their DT in the big CP thread in this section.

 

[MrTuskfish]

MrTuskfish, I will read it for sure. But I'm confused by your comment. Are you saying that the traditional lengthy fallow is the only way to eliminate the parasite? I've read quite a few threads on how CP is effective (even in DT) in killing the parasite with a 4 week treatment. I'll do some more research before I begin.

CP will not kill the cyst phase of ich, which can last for weeks. here's the main post from one of Snorvich's stickies; it shows that only 68% of ich cysts release their offspring within 3 weeks, 95% in 6 weeks and 99.7% within 9 weeks. This is the only time they can be killed; either by a med or because the tank is fishless and they can't find a host. CP does nothing to change these numbers. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041951 There is no real difference in the action of CP and copper. CP may be easier on the fish and has a lot of appeal for folks who are nervous with using copper. But CP isn't a miracle worker; it does nothing to alter the life cycle of ich and the resulting fallow time required to rid a tank of ich in all of its forms.

 

[Rondelet]

...You may also get a significant PO4 spike after dosing it....

This is an interesting comment. Any further comment on what causes the PO4 spike?

 

[Yodeling]

CP will not kill the cyst phase of ich, which can last for weeks. here's the main post from one of Snorvich's stickies; it shows that only 68% of ich cysts release their offspring within 3 weeks, 95% in 6 weeks and 99.7% within 9 weeks. This is the only time they can be killed; either by a med or because the tank is fishless and they can't find a host. CP does nothing to change these numbers. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041951 There is no real difference in the action of CP and copper. CP may be easier on the fish and has a lot of appeal for folks who are nervous with using copper. But CP isn't a miracle worker; it does nothing to alter the life cycle of ich and the resulting fallow time required to rid a tank of ich in all of its forms.

So perhaps I'm missing something here. I've been reading about ich and still don't understand the logic behind any of these numbers. I'm seeing recommendations of QT with copper for 4 weeks, yet fallow for up to 12 weeks. So assuming the standard deviation actually applied to ich lifecycle, by that logic, essentially all treatments, whether QT with copper, CP, hypo, or DT fallow, would have to last at least 9 weeks.

Example: You move your fish to QT and treat with copper for 4 weeks. These fish have ich in the "first stage" but the copper won't kill it till it gets to 3rd stage. Applying the standard deviation logic, 32% of the ich doesn't reach 3rd stage until after the 4 week treatment is over and reinfects the fish. You keep the fish separate from the tank for up to 9 weeks, then put them back in and reinfect your tank.

Again, perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand why people would have any success with all these treatments unless:
a) Copper/CP actually effects ich in other stages.
b) The 9 week standard deviation logic is flawed.
c) Pure luck

 

[Deinonych]

This is an interesting comment. Any further comment on what causes the PO4 spike?

The assumption is that PO4 is dissociated from the CP molecule when it is broken down. While I have not seen any significant PO4 problems with my tank, there are a couple of folks in the CP thread that have experienced significant PO4 problems after dosing CP in the DT. Really not sure about the mechanism behind it.

 

[MrTuskfish]

So perhaps I'm missing something here. I've been reading about ich and still don't understand the logic behind any of these numbers. I'm seeing recommendations of QT with copper for 4 weeks, yet fallow for up to 12 weeks. So assuming the standard deviation actually applied to ich lifecycle, by that logic, essentially all treatments, whether QT with copper, CP, hypo, or DT fallow, would have to last at least 9 weeks.

Example: You move your fish to QT and treat with copper for 4 weeks. These fish have ich in the "first stage" but the copper won't kill it till it gets to 3rd stage. Applying the standard deviation logic, 32% of the ich doesn't reach 3rd stage until after the 4 week treatment is over and reinfects the fish. You keep the fish separate from the tank for up to 9 weeks, then put them back in and reinfect your tank.

Again, perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand why people would have any success with all these treatments unless:
a) Copper/CP actually effects ich in other stages.
b) The 9 week standard deviation logic is flawed.
c) Pure luck

I know the numbers don't add up, nothing does when it comes to ich. My feeling is that the 4 week treatment is about all the medication a fish can take. Then it remains in the QT a while for observation, a 2nd treatment may be necessary. The fallow period is basically "the longer, the better". If you treat for 4 weeks, don't see any signs of ich for a few more weeks (I have new fish in QT for at least a week prior to treating with anything. Then use PP for a week, then Cu/CP) ; you're getting close to the 9 weeks. Even at the 9 week mark; you still miss the magical, but impossible, 100% kill mark. But you're awfully close. FWIW. I have about 1000 gals of DT space, lost about the same in Katrina. That's a lot of fish. I haven't seen ich in any of my DTs in the many years I've been using the QT timetable in this post. But, ich could still win sometime. With ich, you option C, pure luck, is certainly a factor; but we do everything we can to keep the highest odds on our side. FWIW: IMO & IME, I believe that many, maybe most, of the failures with ich control are due to hobbyist error. Maybe just a drop of water cross-contamination.

 

[snorvich]

There are multiple strains of cryptocaryon irritans (my faulty memory suggests about 14?). When I wrote the fallow period sticky, I intentionally simplified introducing a normal distribution when in fact for a given strain, it is most likely NOT a normal distribution with front loading being more realistic. But since we do not know the strain, we are trying to give you odds of success. By all means go with the shorter fallow period if you want to roll the dice. The longest known is 72 days.

For those that are "analyzing" my initial post on the subject, and pointing out what they perceive as errors, I must admit to originally simplifying in the interest of understandability. For any given salinity, temperature, light cycle, and most importantly, strain of cryptocaryon irritans, the life cycle distribution is much more likely to be Poisson rather than normal. But for the population (collection) of those distributions, as with most biological processes, the overall statistical description is likely to be normal.

However for those who are uncomfortable with the original analysis simply assume the longest reported period which is 72 days. That is probably going to be ok the vast majority of the time. For that too is a simplification as it is only for one strain of cryptocaryon irritans in one set of circumstances.

 

[Rondelet]

...FWIW: IMO & IME, I believe that many, maybe most, of the failures with ich control are due to hobbyist error...

I would certainly agree with this statement.

 

[Yodeling]

Steve and Steve, thank you both for sticking with me and for thorough explanations. I sometimes overanalyze things but it's just not in my nature to accept advice without questioning everything. I think I'm starting to get a good handle on this and feeling more comfortable. The main lesson I'm taking going forward is that there are no guarantees one will defeat ich, only ways to maximize chance of success. Thanks again. I will report back on progression of my CP treatment (on another thread).