Treating ICH in a 90 QT

[jessemac]

Hey everyone, I apologize for the story.
I have been a member here for a bit now now, but rarely ever get online. I also have a michiganreefers.com account. Get on there more, when I have time. Anyway, here is a link to my ICH thread there.

http://www.michiganreefers.com/foru.../134955-best-treatment-ich-3.html#post1009383

Here is a run down of what is going on. I introduced a Klein's Butterfly to my 90 mixed reef, though, I have not been responsible and many of my corals have perished the last few months while I have been spending most all my time in school or at work. Fish have all been doing great.

List of what I have prior to the Klein's introduction, all of which I have had for 15 months of more.
6-7" Inch Naso (Male I believe, Will be going to new home soon, bigger I hope)
3-4" Yellow Tang
3-4" Flame Fin Tomini Tang
3" Barbonias Anthias
Extreme Black Misbar Clown (Female)
Snowflake Clown (Male)
2-3" Leopard Wrasse (Macropharyngodon meleagris)
Male and Female Blue Mandarin pair

Introduced the Klein's Butterfly to assist with riding my tank of aptasia. Pick it up from another reefer who had it for about 8 months, no issues with ICH in his tank; or mine for that matter, ever. But, after two days in my tank, the Klein's had ICH, or what looked to be ICH anyway. Still pretty sure that is what it is.

The first night I noticed it, I stayed up all night. That was 3 June. I had already purchased a 150gal for my upgrade when I move in late july. So I started prepping that for all my live rock. Needed to be cleaned, plumbed, etc. I don't have a lot of time...sucks. Anyway, I picked up some Microbe Lift Herbtana, dosed that Tuesday or Wednesday of that week. The next evening when I came home from class, no spots on the Klein's. Non of the other fish were showing any signs of ICH.

I soaked food in garlic power for a few days, still no signs on any of the fish, then bam, almost all were showing signs, except the wrasse and mandarin's.

So, I finished prepping the 150, moved all the LR and corals over to it, leaving just fish and sand in my 90. I dosed with my first dose of Cupramine yesterday, at 1/4 of the recommended amount for my system. I kept all fish in the tank after ample amount of research as to what to do with the Leopard wrasse and Mandarin's. Tomorrow is the second dose which I will do at the 1/4 as before.

If you read my michiganreefers thread, or at least the last page of it, you will understand more. I am hesitant to leave the mandarins in the 90 with a higher dose of Cumprmine, they are still alive, but only eat live food, never once have they eaten prepared foods in the year and a half I have had them, probably longer. So they will need pods soon. What are your thoughts on this matter?

All advice and input is welcome. Thank you for your time.

 

[Mrscribbled]

This question arises very often. Your current lr is full of pods and in a fishless tank so here is what I'd do... Set up a small qt for the mandarins and use no treatment, this will give you a chance to target feed them alone. You can place some live rock in there also. Once the new tanks fallow period is over move the fish from the 90 to the 150, then do TT method on the mandarin and place back into the reef. The live rock that was wth the mandarins has to be fishless ten weeks then before going bsck to the DT. When target feeding the mandarins use a turkey baster.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

 

[jessemac]

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of doing pretty much what you suggested. I just wasn't sure if it was the right choice.

I did a 15% water change last night and this morning I did the second dose of Cupramine at 6ml, being I took some water out, I increased the dose by two ml's, which is still just over half the recommended dose for a 90 gallon system.

I think I am going to go ahead and take the mandarins out, and put them in the 50 gallon sump which has a 12 gallon fuge with macro and some very porus LR, bare bottom. The sump is teaming with pods.

Other than that, all the fish are eating and actively swiming around, too include the mandarins well except for the eating part. I think they are searching, probably finding some pods still. As the copper levels must not be too high "yet" as I apparently forgot a blue leg hermit and a snail which are still alive, as are the couple aptasia that were in the sand and the feather dusters that are in the sand.

I am bummed however, because I have not seen my Leopard wrasse since the lights went out the day of the first dose of Cupramine. As I mentioned in my thread on michiganreefers, There is no sign of her on the carpet, so she must be in the sand. When I first got her, she was not where to be found for nearly 3 weeks. I just hope she is alive adn well.

The only fish showing external signs of ICH is the Klein's, but it is still active and eating a lot, so that is a good sign.

I have just over 6 weeks before I will be moving, I hope this is cleared up by then. I really don't want to have to tear every down move it and then have to put them back into the QT in the new apartment.

 

[jessemac]

Update,
I woke up this morning to see my Leopard wrasse swimming around, alive and well, very active and was eating when I fed the tank. Was a great relief to see her out.

None of the fish are showing external signs of ICH, not even the Klein's. Though, from the past couple weeks, it things continue as they have, the Klein's will have white spots on it in a day or two. Hopefully not!

I plan to take out the Mandarin pair today and put them in the fuge section on my sump (not attached to the 90 anymore).

I will also add another dose of Cupramine today. To get one step closer to the recommended dose at this point. Typically, this is done in two doses if following the instructions. For my being I have sensitive fish in there, I want to extend this process to give them longer to adjust. So, I will do two more doses, one today and one tomorrow.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Be sure you test the coppet level with salifert or seachem kit, your sand will be absorbing some and will prevent accurate dosing using label instructions.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

 

[jessemac]

Be sure you test the coppet level with salifert or seachem kit, your sand will be absorbing some and will prevent accurate dosing using label instructions.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

Thanks, I should probably do a test before I add any more cupramine. I did pick up a salifert copper test kit, I haven't tested yet, but am still under the recommended dosing amount. I would also like to get the seachem ammonia alert strip and some amquel.

I have the Mandarin pair in a buck drip acclimating them to the sump. Even though the water was originally from the same system.

Should I do another 10-15% water change prior to the next dose of copper? The water is looking a bit cloudy. Seem to get more cloudy after I did the last dose of cupramine. I'm going to test the water for nitrates and phosphates today. I don't have an ammonia test kit yet. Never needed on until now.

 

[Mrscribbled]

Do NOT use amquel with curamine, it is a deadly combination and will kill your fish.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

 

[Mrscribbled]

Ammonia alert badge is a good idea, most ammonia teat kits will give a false reading with copper. Nitrates snd phosphate are harmless and least of your concern.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

 

[jessemac]

Do NOT use amquel with curamine, it is a deadly combination and will kill your fish.


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android

Thanks for this. I was picking it up tonight!

 

[jessemac]

Update; I tested the copper today with a Salifert test kit. Even with waiting the extend time to 20 minutes, the copper level (hard to read) was around the .25 margin on the color chart. So, I dose another 6 ml of cupramine, which would bring the total amount dose to 14 ml, and I did a 15% water change two days after the first dose. The total recommended dose after 48 hours is 16 ml, then test.

I will test again tomorrow to see where the copper level is at, and dose or not dose accordingly.

All fish were eating good today with two feedings of pellets then later some garlic power and fuel soaked PE Mysis, except the Naso who only ate a couple pellets (way outside the norm), but did eat some fresh live calerpa I took from the fuge.

Also, I add some more bio balls to the return section of the skimmer chamber that have been soaking in the fuge since the 10th or 11th of June. I put in the Mardel Ammonia test strip today as well. According to the strip, no detectable levels of ammonia present. I know it could be off with copper present in the water column, so if any level starts to show, I will do a water change.

 

[jessemac]

Update: Although the fish are still eating, it is minimal. The Naso won't touch anything except live macro fresh out of my sump and I'm running out quick. Going to have to go get some more.

All fish are very skittish and any movement outside the tank and they dash for cover in or behind the PVC fittings.

I do not believe any of the fish have any external signs of ICH; however, they won't stay in the open long enough for me to get a good look. The clown pair is the only ones that are out in the open.

The Leopard Wrasse is MIA again today! :-(

 

[jessemac]

Update: Day 16 (since I first noticed the ICH)
Fish: None are showing external signs of ICH!!! So that is good.
Most are fairly active and eating, mostly staying behind the 4" PVC fittings.
The Naso still won't eat PE Mysis or the Pellet Mix, but will eat live Macro from my fuge, swims about some, but not much.
The Borbonias Anthias (Spotted Anthia) has his own spot behind one of the PVC fittings, only eats when I feed the PE Mysis, and isn't very active. But it was never a big swimmer before.
The Leopard Wrasse is still MIA, its been a few days now. I really hope she is doing alright. She was eating PE Mysis and Pellet mix the last day she was out.

Another thing I was thinking of doing as a precautionary measure. Was to lightly, very lightly siphon the dusting off the top of the send bed. Making sure NOT to disturb it as it is a DSB. There seems to be a lot of debris in there, plus I'm hoping to suck up any ICH parasites still lurking in the sand. NOt sure if that would help but its a thought.

 

[cngreg]

Very important to keep cupramine abouve .18ppm but lower than your wimpiest fishes freakout level (things like seahorses/lionfish/mandarins is around .4 and depends on fish). Test often and consistantly. If you are at .15 for a day, the tomites/trophonts might get through and botch your whole effort. Consider doing a tank transfer method of qt for each fish as you add them (1 by one or 2 by 2 or all at once) to your new display. If you don't understand what im talking about see the stickies at the top of this forum about crypt life cycle and tank transfer method.

 

[jessemac]

Very important to keep cupramine abouve .18ppm but lower than your wimpiest fishes freakout level (things like seahorses/lionfish/mandarins is around .4 and depends on fish). Test often and consistantly. If you are at .15 for a day, the tomites/trophonts might get through and botch your whole effort. Consider doing a tank transfer method of qt for each fish as you add them (1 by one or 2 by 2 or all at once) to your new display. If you don't understand what im talking about see the stickies at the top of this forum about crypt life cycle and tank transfer method.

Thanks for the insight, much appreciated! I wasn't really familiar with TT method prior to this incident; however, I am now. I plan on doing the TT method after the roughly 7 weeks of Cupramine treatment. Which is when I will be moving. So, I will do the TT method starting then just to be on the safe side.

As for the copper levels. I need to test again, but they should be right around the .5 ppm mark.

 

[jessemac]

Update: Day 18

No fish are showing external signs of ICH.

I stopped by Fish Doctors of Canton yesterday and was able to pick up some Selcon; always like stopping in there, staff is friendly, open to conversation and knowledgeable.

The Leopard Wrasse is out and eating today, after being MIA for roughly 5 days. So that is awesome. Though, she is not very active, but at least she is out and eating PE Mysis soaked in Garlic Power and Selcon.

It is bothering me that I can't get the Naso to eat any of the PE Mysis, Pellet Mix, or the Seaweed sheets. He will pick at the live macro algae but not much of it. I couldn't geed him enough before the start of this process. He is also very inactive and has been this way since the last introduction of Cupramine.

All other fish are eating well and semi active.

The Mardel Ammonia Test Strip is still reading 0. The skimmer is pulling some nasty dark green stuff.

 

[jessemac]

Updateay 20

Last night, I did an emergency water change of 40% and added 2ml of Cupramine ,and a fish move (Leopard Wrasse) due to the water in the take increasing in cloudiness and the fact that the Spotted Anthia was spending nearly all its time on the sand, and the Leopard wrasse was hovering just above the sand bouncing off the bottom here and there. Neither were looking very good.

before I did the water change I moved the the Leopard wrasse as she didn't burrow in the sand when the lights when out and instead went bell up in the corner. So, I took a risk and moved the Leopard wrasse to the sump with the Mandarin Pair (who are doing excellent), lights were out and the Leopard wrasse swam/ sunk straight to the bottom, breathing very fast and still belly up into a crevice in the LR. I checked this morning and still in the same spot still breathing rapidly. I just got home and the Leopard Wrasse is swimming about in the sump, slowly, but upright and alive!!!! I must say, I think that was the best course of action.

The Spotted Anthia is also more lively, active and swimming about off the sand-bed. Same with the Naso, and hopefully will start eating more than just live macro.

The water is much clearer today and I will continue to feed, maybe a bit more sparingly. Still not ammonia registering on the Mardel Test Strip.

 

[jessemac]

Well Over Due For An Update

Well Over Due For An Update

Update: Day 26 of Cupramine Treatment.

I know I'm long over due on an update. My apologies. The fish in the 90 QT are doing exceptionally well. All are eating and very active. The Mandarin pair and Leopard Wrasse are still in the sump/ fuge and are doing great as well. I bout a couple bottles of tiger pods early this week to add more pods as I'm sure they are consuming a lot in such a small space.

I keep testing the copper in the 90QT and I think the sand keeps sucking it up, so I have been cautiously adding more in the 1/4ml range. The levels as of today are somewhere between .25 and .5, as the color chart is so dam hard to read. It goes from nearly clear to varying shades of very light blue. Either way, I think that is a good range to keep the copper levels at anyway. I just don't the levels to drop below .25, and not above .5. I monitor the fish closely, so any signs of stress and I will do a water change to lower the copper levels.

There have been no signs of ICH for I think about 3 weeks. I would have to go through the thread to verify that. The fish will remain in the 90 QT with cupramine until the end of this month. Then I plan on doing the TT method and treating with Prazipro just to be on the safe side.

 

[appellativo]

You sure are a trouper! Good on ya.