Trying to create a Pair

[Featherdusters]

I have been trying to pair up false percs for a while now. I tried the most common method, which was buy 2 young ones and let them bond. That didn't work (one too aggressive). Then I tried adding a young one to a older female. That also didn't work (same problem).

So I took a different route. I bought 4 false percs at my LFS and figured at least two should get along nicely and form a bond. They are all over a year old. I have had them for over a week and half and no dominant clown has come forward. Once in a while they will twitch at each other but I see no major aggression (I have been watching carefully). They appear content. They also form a clown ball when they sleep at night. How long will it take one of them to turn into a female? How possible is it that the female won't like any of the males? Is it possible they will just continue acting like this?

 

[Slakker]

Remove two of those clowns. Having more than two clowns in a tank is a terrible idea.

 

[Featherdusters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11024120#post11024120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Remove two of those clowns. Having more than two clowns in a tank is a terrible idea.

I believe I mentioned I will remove two once they pair up or if I see any fighting before hand. I originally want a pair, just trying this method as an alternative since my first two routes didn't work. I took precautions. They are in a 125G with lots of live rock and hiding places. No other clown species are present. I also already have future homes for the last two and my QT tank setup just in case.

 

[Slakker]

Actually you didn't...but thanks for clarifying.

What do you mean that one was too aggressive? Was one of the clowns actually in danger of losing its life?

Also, in my opinion, having four clowns will end up delaying the bonding process. More competition for the dominant spot means it'll take longer and be riskier for the fish.

 

[Featherdusters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11024171#post11024171 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Actually you didn't...but thanks for clarifying.

What do you mean that one was too aggressive? Was one of the clowns actually in danger of losing its life?

Also, in my opinion, having four clowns will end up delaying the bonding process. More competition for the dominant spot means it'll take longer and be riskier for the fish.

You are correct. Too much agression was my reason for other two methods being unsuccessful. I even tried methods of lowering aggression. Like introducing during dark hours, separating, rock work rearrangement.

I also thought having 4 clowns would allow me to choose the better personalities for my future pair. I want to avoid having an overly aggressive clownfish. I guess my previous experiences have turned me off.

Ah and sorry, I forgot I took the sentence out about keeping only two. I only eluded to it. I don't know if you do this, but sometimes I write a couple of sentences in my post and then end up deleting them and rewriting the paragraph.

 

[Slakker]

I do re-write from time to time. No worries

I'm surprised that you had two aggression problems in a row, especially with A. Ocellaris. They are generally one of the most docile species.

You may be right about the personalities, but it's also possible that you won't see the real personalities of the fish come out until you've got your pair.

I'm still really surprised by the aggression...you'll have SOME fighting when clowns are pairing, but it's usually nothing more harmful than a slightly torn fin. Have you been getting wild caught or captive bred clowns? Perhaps that's a factor in some way.

 

[Featherdusters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11024212#post11024212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
I do re-write from time to time. No worries

I'm surprised that you had two aggression problems in a row, especially with A. Ocellaris. They are generally one of the most docile species.

You may be right about the personalities, but it's also possible that you won't see the real personalities of the fish come out until you've got your pair.

I'm still really surprised by the aggression...you'll have SOME fighting when clowns are pairing, but it's usually nothing more harmful than a slightly torn fin. Have you been getting wild caught or captive bred clowns? Perhaps that's a factor in some way.

Hmm... interesting suggestion. I never thought about C.B. verses W.C. All my previous ones were captive breed. These current ones are wild caught. I would have bought captive breed ones, but my choices this time were sickly looking $24 captive breed or $6 healthy wild caught ones.

Maybe I just have horrible luck. I was also surprised by my failures. I debated a while at getting a different clown breed, but I have a fondness for the false perc coloration. I also considered just buying two clownfish already paired, but they aren't readily available where I live and I don't trust online shipping.

 

[Featherdusters]

-edit made in previous post-

 

[Slakker]

My Ocellaris are both captive bred and I've seen no severe aggression at all. At worst the female will charge towards the male, perhaps nudge him with her nose, but never anything that actually causes any harm.

How bad was the aggression? What kinds of things were you seeing that made you think it was dangerous? I'm not questioning your judgment, by any means, just trying to get a grasp of what you mean.

 

[Featherdusters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11025653#post11025653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
My Ocellaris are both captive bred and I've seen no severe aggression at all. At worst the female will charge towards the male, perhaps nudge him with her nose, but never anything that actually causes any harm.

How bad was the aggression? What kinds of things were you seeing that made you think it was dangerous? I'm not questioning your judgment, by any means, just trying to get a grasp of what you mean.

The aggression was pretty bad. There was noticeable damage to fin and gills on the male. The female would even hunt the male and it got extremely difficult to feed him. The female wouldn't eat until she was sure that he wasn't trying to eat.

Someone suggested that I might have two females, but the "male" always showed submissive behavior.

 

[Slakker]

That is pretty bizarre. Sorry you had to go through that!

 

[zotzer]

Over what sort of timeframe did this aggression last?

I swear, I never would have lasted through the process if a resident clownfish expert hadn't talked me through it. It was quite brutal (I was introducing a juvie a. perc with an established female a. perc). She would actually grab him by the pectoral fin, dive, and shake him violently!

The brutality lasted off and on during the course of an entire day, but the juvie finally submitted and all has been beautiful ever since.

Seriously, it takes a bit of an iron stomach, and some faith that a murder won't happen (and possible intervention if injury is any more severe than some torn fins, etc... which evidently is quite common)

Good luck!
Tracy

 

[Featherdusters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11027352#post11027352 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zotzer
Over what sort of timeframe did this aggression last?

I swear, I never would have lasted through the process if a resident clownfish expert hadn't talked me through it. It was quite brutal (I was introducing a juvie a. perc with an established female a. perc). She would actually grab him by the pectoral fin, dive, and shake him violently!

The brutality lasted off and on during the course of an entire day, but the juvie finally submitted and all has been beautiful ever since.

Seriously, it takes a bit of an iron stomach, and some faith that a murder won't happen (and possible intervention if injury is any more severe than some torn fins, etc... which evidently is quite common)

Good luck!
Tracy

lol I love fish forums like these. Its so helpful speaking to people that aren't looking to make a profit off your mistakes.

To answer your question: I attempted to pair the female off with two different males (separate time periods). The first time the aggression lasted for three weeks. Several times during that time period I had to take him out and let him heal. After his third or so healing period I gave him to a friend. The second male didn't even last three days. The poor guy was looking so abused that I ended up placing him in QT for a month before I gave him away.

Thanks for the luck! And thanks for all the advice slakker.

Small Update:

All the clowns still appear to be happy. No signs of stress, aggression, injury or sickness is visible. I think they must have established some sort of order or else everything wouldn't be so calm. Hopefully a pair make themselves known soon.

 

[Slakker]

It sounds like they may have some sort of temporary hierarchy, but perhaps they're all still kind of just holding each other at the same level.

In any case, I'm glad to hear that you're not seeing any such ridiculous violence this time around, and I hope that your success continues. Perhaps you'll be one of the very few that has some luck with this four clown arrangement. I believe Joyce Wilkerson had a similar situation that worked for quite some time with A. Ocellaris...still, I'd be prepared (as you are) to be doing some separating sooner or later.

Keep us posted!

 

[zotzer]

To answer your question: I attempted to pair the female off with two different males (separate time periods). The first time the aggression lasted for three weeks. Several times during that time period I had to take him out and let him heal.

How little was the new fish you tried to add? Is there a way you could find a true juvenile fish (won't be any sex yet). The perc I added was from a tank full of juvies...it was tiny, and the bars were not even filled in yet. It's one way to be sure you aren't trying to pair two females.

Here is a pic to see the size/color difference between my female and the new juvie (and I've had it for a few weeks now). It's still bright bright orange without complete stripes.

Anyway, good luck with the current arrangement. I wouldn't proceed that way, but as long as you are prepared to remove two of them before they are killed, more power to ya!

Tracy

 

[Featherdusters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11031485#post11031485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
It sounds like they may have some sort of temporary hierarchy, but perhaps they're all still kind of just holding each other at the same level.

In any case, I'm glad to hear that you're not seeing any such ridiculous violence this time around, and I hope that your success continues. Perhaps you'll be one of the very few that has some luck with this four clown arrangement. I believe Joyce Wilkerson had a similar situation that worked for quite some time with A. Ocellaris...still, I'd be prepared (as you are) to be doing some separating sooner or later.

Keep us posted!

Thanks for best wishes. I hope everything goes well too. I am still closely monitoring them and have started to see some interesting behavior develop. One clown will rush up to a second clown and start twitching. The second clown will response by moving its body along side the first and twitching. A third clown will see these two and join in. Finally the fourth will join. They will all twitch together for a good 5secs and then finally return to normal.

I am hoping if I do have to separate that my two favorites will pair up. There is one with a dark black horizontal stripe on its back tail (interesting marking morph) and another that has no black between the white and orange.

 

[Featherdusters]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11031982#post11031982 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zotzer
How little was the new fish you tried to add? Is there a way you could find a true juvenile fish (won't be any sex yet). The perc I added was from a tank full of juvies...it was tiny, and the bars were not even filled in yet. It's one way to be sure you aren't trying to pair two females.

Here is a pic to see the size/color difference between my female and the new juvie (and I've had it for a few weeks now). It's still bright bright orange without complete stripes.

Anyway, good luck with the current arrangement. I wouldn't proceed that way, but as long as you are prepared to remove two of them before they are killed, more power to ya!

Tracy

My female is 2.7". I tired one that was 1.2" and another one that was 1.4". I bought tank breed clowns for her. Tank breed clowns are readily sold as true junvies since the breeder has another clutch to raise and needs to get rid of the current one. Its actually hard to find mature tank breed clowns. Most mature clowns are wild caught.

You have a very pretty pair. Hehehe you don't know how jealous I get when people get lucky and their clowns pair off right away xD

Thanks for the luck also. I know I am taking a chance with the 4 clowns, but hopefully they pair. I would have never done this with any other clown breed.

 

[ryan_paskadi]

From what I have read clowns are herm's they all start as female, the more aggressive ones in a pair will switch to male. Once male they cannot switch back.

How do you know the sex of your clowns?

Did the female you had turn male?

 

[ryan_paskadi]

I just reread some clown info and I was totally wrong... they start off nuetral and then the big one becomes female and next biggest male....Males can switch to females but females cannot go back to males.

Still......how do you sex them?

 

[Slakker]

You don't, really...you just kinda know that if a clown has been alone for too long it becomes female.