TTM Did Not Work for Me.

[Badbrad8500]

Hopefully the Tank Transfer Method works for others, but it certainly did not work for me.

I had ich and possibly other diseases in my main display tank that wiped out 75% of the inhabitants a couple months ago. I gave away the surviving fish and let the tank set for 12 weeks.

I followed the TTM instructions to the T:

-Scooped out as little water as possible with the fish

-Placed the tanks at least 9 feet from each other

-Used bleach each time to sterilize equipment and let totally air dry in the sun for 24hrs

-Took each power head apart and made sure there was absolutely no water left in each before returning to service.

-Quarantined the fish after the TTM and noticed no signs of disease

-Visually inspected all fish before placing in main display tank, all were visibly clear of disease.

Here is my schedule:

Day 1: 10:30am added fish
Day 4RAZI: 8:30am
Day 7: Around 8:00am
Day 10 PRAZI: 8:00am
Day 13: 8:00am out to QT

The fish starting exhibiting the salt grains of ich approximately 5 days after being released into the main display.

As far as I can guess, the TTM failed to catch all the ich or my main display tank had ich. The display was sitting for 12 weeks, was this too short of a timespan for total ich starvation?

In any case, I have all the fish in the display on Dr. G's Antiparasitic and plan to catch them sometime when I gain motivation to continue this depressing phase of the hobby, probably late summer or Fall. I'll leave the display for 16 weeks (or longer?) and treat the fish in QT with Chloroquine Phosphate.

Has anyone else had a similar experience with TTM not working or having ich in a system after system has been fallow for 12 weeks? It makes me sick thinking that I have to start this whole process over again...

 

[tassod]

I went fallow for 4 months and it did not work, waste of time IMO. Your issue is probably the fallow period and not TTM. As far as treating the fish, i use copper but i know lots of people here will disagree with that.

 

[ThRoewer]

I don't think the TTM part of your treatment failed.
I rather think that the parasite in the DT is a strain that can lay in wait for fish to infect much longer than what has so far been observed and documented by science.

The times I had to pull fish out of the DT for ich treatment, I didn't let the tank sit fallow, but rather left the immune fish in while treating the infected fish. My thoughts here are that the tomites may need the chemical signature of a fish to initiate excystment. The immune fish will rather kill off each parasite that tries to attach to them than function as a host.
So far it worked for me twice.

The tricky part of this is to identify the immune fish.
I assumed the fish to be immune that never showed even the slightest symptoms of an ich infection while other fish around them were severely ill.

This approach clearly comes with a sizable risk, so if you try it, you should be prepared for it to fall and have a plan B ready to go.

If you want to be 100% sure you would likely need to completely sterilize the infected DT, something that doesn't work well with a tank that has inverts and corals.

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[Badbrad8500]

I went fallow for 4 months and it did not work, waste of time IMO. Your issue is probably the fallow period and not TTM. As far as treating the fish, i use copper but i know lots of people here will disagree with that.

That's depressing, what did you end up doing? Do you just manage the disease or did you start over? Yeah I've heard copper is pretty effective, I may have to try that if the CP doesn't work.

 

[Badbrad8500]

I don't think the TTM part of your treatment failed.
I rather think that the parasite in the DT is a strain that can lay in wait for fish to infect much longer than what has so far been observed and documented by science.

The times I had to pull fish out of the DT for ich treatment, I didn't let the tank sit fallow, but rather left the immune fish in while treating the infected fish. My thoughts here are that the tomites may need the chemical signature of a fish to initiate excystment. The immune fish will rather kill off each parasite that tries to attach to them than function as a host.
So far it worked for me twice.

The tricky part of this is to identify the immune fish.
I assumed the fish to be immune that never showed even the slightest symptoms of an ich infection while other fish around them were severely ill.

This approach clearly comes with a sizable risk, so if you try it, you should be prepared for it to fall and have a plan B ready to go.

If you want to be 100% sure you would likely need to completely sterilize the infected DT, something that doesn't work well with a tank that has inverts and corals.

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That sounds pretty tricky : ) Have you added fish since each time you tried this? How long did you leave the immune fish by itself each time?

 

[hairalgae85]

I don't think the TTM part of your treatment failed.
I rather think that the parasite in the DT is a strain that can lay in wait for fish to infect much longer than what has so far been observed and documented by science.

The times I had to pull fish out of the DT for ich treatment, I didn't let the tank sit fallow, but rather left the immune fish in while treating the infected fish. My thoughts here are that the tomites may need the chemical signature of a fish to initiate excystment. The immune fish will rather kill off each parasite that tries to attach to them than function as a host.
So far it worked for me twice.

The tricky part of this is to identify the immune fish.
I assumed the fish to be immune that never showed even the slightest symptoms of an ich infection while other fish around them were severely ill.

This approach clearly comes with a sizable risk, so if you try it, you should be prepared for it to fall and have a plan B ready to go.

If you want to be 100% sure you would likely need to completely sterilize the infected DT, something that doesn't work well with a tank that has inverts and corals.

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If this is in fact truth, which I am starting to believe, what is the answer. Go 4 months, find out it wasn't long enough...try again go 6 months? if that fails, disinfect tank, bleace everything, throw all corals and inverts away, restart tank, add corals from an existing system that presumably had fish and chance restarting the whole process?

I am not questioning you, just starting to realize that this hobby may not be sustainable for most reef keepers. Knowing you can ttm and copper fish, but not coral, means at some point we are playing roulette with adding coral, unless of course you go fish only.


Its frustrating and hard enough to go 16 weeks fallow. Its tougher knowing that this may...or may not be a way to eradicate it.

 

[hairalgae85]

That's depressing, what did you end up doing? Do you just manage the disease or did you start over? Yeah I've heard copper is pretty effective, I may have to try that if the CP doesn't work.

I think what he is trying to say here is the method of kill does not matter. Whether its copper, cp, hypo, ttm, it all works. The problem lies in the tank itself that is untreated, regardless of how long you go.

I just went 11 weeks myself, coppered all fish, and am starting to see "signs" of it back. I know guys like bob fenner believe its always there, regardless of what you do.

 

[tassod]

That's depressing, what did you end up doing? Do you just manage the disease or did you start over? Yeah I've heard copper is pretty effective, I may have to try that if the CP doesn't work.

I nuked the tank and bleached everything, then i went fish only as i didn't want to deal with multiple QT tanks so I run copper in my main DT 24/7 so my DT is essentially my QT tank full time. Been doing this now for the last 5+ months with zero issues.

 

[Badbrad8500]

I think what he is trying to say here is the method of kill does not matter. Whether its copper, cp, hypo, ttm, it all works. The problem lies in the tank itself that is untreated, regardless of how long you go.

I just went 11 weeks myself, coppered all fish, and am starting to see "signs" of it back. I know guys like bob fenner believe its always there, regardless of what you do.

I think you're right, where does it end? How can you be absolutely sure you don't have ich in the system, just like any other disease (including your black spot).

 

[Badbrad8500]

I nuked the tank and bleached everything, then i went fish only as i didn't want to deal with multiple QT tanks so I run copper in my main DT 24/7 so my DT is essentially my QT tank full time. Been doing this now for the last 5+ months with zero issues.

This would be the way to go for me if I could do FOWLR. Unfortunately, if I didn't have a chance at coral, I'd be out of the hobby I think : (

 

[Badbrad8500]

This is what frustrates me the most in the this hobby. How can anyone be absolutely guaranteed to have a permanently disease-free tank?? If one bleached everything and started again, wouldn't you have to get the "live" stuff (Rock, macro algae, snail/crab packing water) somewhere? How could you guarantee the stuff you obtained from someone else wouldn't have some sort of lurking disease? Do you run everything through a 4 month (or longer) QT and just hope it rids everything?

I can see why people quit this hobby. I have had a 150g set up for years with 30 or so fish, many coral, with no issues (never quarantined). Then I set this 300g up and actually quarantine everything for 3 weeks and have (at least) 2 separate diseases take out about $1,000 worth of fish. Then I go through the whole fallow and QT (TTM, Prazi) method and STILL have disease present in the DT. I can't imagine how much grief I would feel if I had the tank totally stocked and some sort of parasite "woke up" after being in the water from a restocking of snails or coral and demolished my system.

 

[hairalgae85]

This is what frustrates me the most in the this hobby. How can anyone be absolutely guaranteed to have a permanently disease-free tank?? If one bleached everything and started again, wouldn't you have to get the "live" stuff (Rock, macro algae, snail/crab packing water) somewhere? How could you guarantee the stuff you obtained from someone else wouldn't have some sort of lurking disease? Do you run everything through a 4 month (or longer) QT and just hope it rids everything?

I can see why people quit this hobby. I have had a 150g set up for years with 30 or so fish, many coral, with no issues (never quarantined). Then I set this 300g up and actually quarantine everything for 3 weeks and have (at least) 2 separate diseases take out about $1,000 worth of fish. Then I go through the whole fallow and QT (TTM, Prazi) method and STILL have disease present in the DT. I can't imagine how much grief I would feel if I had the tank totally stocked and some sort of parasite "woke up" after being in the water from a restocking of snails or coral and demolished my system.

Precisely right. I don't think it's sustainable, all the time and money to be on the edge. Seems like a matter of when, not if.

I can picture in the future having coral, inverts, algae etc, come from systems with absolutely no fish at all in the system. A live aquaria of some sort, that knows the service they haemve, and charge appropriately for having an all inclusive system for non fish.

The worst part isnt the money, but a combination of time, and losing fish hand over fist. Bleaching and restarting everything only sets the table for it to wander in again.

Perhaps theist frustrating piece is that of the information we have out there . Copper products state 28 days, on here the consensus seems to be 72, but that doesn't at all appear concrete .

In college I read somewhere that the cean is so vast, that the living organism to water volume ratio is analogous to a single colony of coral per Olympic swimming pool . What we do in ohr tanks, more like 200 colonies in a bath tub, is not feasible. Along the lines of overcrowding a hospital, to where it doesn't become safe any longer.

I have read threads on wwm, where fenner replied to the ttm method by saying,a all you need is one piece (used a more scientific word here) to make the transfers, and you still have it.

The latest head scratcher I have read is copper resistant ich. If ich are coming from the ocean, and ich are being treated during the chain of command, or by us, then how does the ich in the ocean become resistant to it and mutate off that? It's not like we're treating the ocean with copper, allowing the ich a chance to adapt. And it's not like we are putting treated fish who have been thru copper back in the ocean. Just don't see how that's possible.

The treatment of fish makes perfect sense. however, the induction of creatures unable to go thru copper, (algae, coral, shrimp, snails etc) appears to be a giant hole in that biosecurity we are striving for . It's like an airport screening all passengers to make sure no terrorist boards the plan and plans to enter he cockpit , but fail to screen the pilots. All you need is that one to ruin in for all.

Sorry about the rant, but with all the advancements in skimming, lighting, efficient pumps, testing etc, it seems we are putting the wagon before the horse

 

[ThRoewer]

Well, in my experience, if you keep your fish well nourished and in a low stress environment ich should not be a major issue even if it's in the tank. Of course you will also show restraint in selecting fish and avoid those fish that are especially ich prone in a tank environment.
I've run tanks like that for decades without ever having a major breakout.

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[hairalgae85]

Well, in my experience, if you keep your fish well nourished and in a low stress environment ich should not be a major issue even if it's in the tank. Of course you will also show restraint in selecting fish and avoid those fish that are especially ich prone in a tank environment.
I've run tanks like that for decades without ever having a major breakout.

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This ultimately may be the best thing to do. I am not arguing with you, but it totally sucks in my opinion (again, I agree with it given the circumstances, just hate the fact of it)

To me, it's like having bad brakes on your car. They work , as long as you don't go over 30 mph and start stopping way before you need to.

 

[jbvdhp]

I thought the strain usually weakens and dies out within a year if no new fish are introduced?


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[kmbyrnes]

I feel that all my tanks are ich free and will remain so.
The reef has never shown any signs of ich since the 11/14 restart. All fish were TTM'd and nothing new added.
The 125 mixed was restarted a year ago after a full sterilization, seeded with rocks from the reef and everything has been QT'd.
The FOWLR was likewise seeded from the reef and all fish TTM'd.
Being meticulously anal about TTM / QT has paid off. I don't worry if today is the day I see ich in one of my tanks

 

[Badbrad8500]

Well right now I'm trying to mitigate the damage. I've been feeding Dr. G's Antiparasitic for the last week and so far no improvement. In fact, all fish have a great deal more ich granules. I'm hoping maybe the medicated food I've been using is just old (I ordered it for the first ich break out, about 6 months ago) and am going to pick up a fresh package on Monday.

I'm hoping I can at least manage the disease until I can figure out something more permanent.

 

[ThRoewer]

It's not working if the fish get more spots with each wave. In that case I would switch to a more effective treatment.

 

[Badbrad8500]

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies.

Hairalgae85, I agree with you. That's why this hobby is so frustating, but perhaps why so many of us are pulled back in as well. It definitely is a ongoing challenge, especially when disease strikes (whether new or reoccurring).

ThRoewer, I agree with you as well. My 150 had ich at one time and I managed to keep it in check with, like you said, low stress and good nutritional diet. I did have more ich prone fish in it as well (Regal Tang, Powder Blue, etc.)

Kmbyrnes, I think in Fall I will have to break down all 350g and do just that, sterilize everything and try to start over. I am going to try the manage-the-ich technique first, but I fear it won't be enough, the fish look pretty bad right now.

 

[cougareyes]

This is why I just can't understand why people are so afraid to treat their display tanks with cupramine. I pulled all my inverts from a 210 fowlr with 200 lbs of liferock, 120 lbs of sand, and 2L of seachem matrix media in the sump. After treatment I used cuprizorb for 2 weeks past when my copper test showed 0, then I used a poly filter, then returned my reactor with rox carbon. I returned the inverts and they are living happily ever after and I have put a couple more fish in afterwards with no problem

I helped a friend with 120g reef do the same thing, he didn't have a huge amount of coral. So we pulled the corals and inverts to a frag tank, we left all these there through a 10 week fallow period. We treated the display the same as I did above, then returned all the corals and inverts, that was well over a year ago. He has added alot more since and all is doing well.

The idea of not be able to remove copper is because people use to try and return things as soon as their test showed 0, per Seachem you run the cuprizorb 2-3 weeks after. Then I add insurance with poly filter and rox carbon.