TTM & Fish Dying

[networkcrasher]

So after Ich wiped out my tank, I'm attempting to get back into the game by TTM'ing all of my new fish. So far, the only two I've put through TTM died after the 1st transfer (ie bag to bucket A, bucket A to bucket B).

They've both been possum wrasses. One being a white line, the other a yellow line. Both died after I moved them from Bucket A to Bucket B. Same salt mix was in both buckets (did 6 gallons and put 3 in each bucket).

No ammonia detected in either, no nitrates, same pH, same salinity, same temps, etc.

The first wrasse, I dosed prazipro in the second bucket and thought it was the reason the wrasse died - he was on day 2 of 3 of the 2nd transfer. I noticed him laying on the bottom, breathing slowly and about an hour later he passed.

So on the second TTM attempt with a second wrasse, I decided to leave out the PraziPro and this morning I woke up and the bucket was full of all of this white floating precipitate. Not really sure what it was? Last night I looked and he looked fine, even ate some food. It's very lightweight - sort of floats around in the water. I removed everything else from the bucket - just had an air stone, a heater, and a PVC tee in there.


In short - so far, TTM is driving me crazy. Two tries, and two dead fish. I've done "normal" QT on the sole fish in my DT already, but want to give TTM a shot on the rest of the fish I add.

 

[Mike Ordner]

Did you use an air pump while the fish was in the bucket? There is not a lot of surface area, so I suspect low oxygen levels. This is especially true if you use prazipro.

 

[Joe0813]

Says he had a air stone.... Are you topping the evaporated water off with fresh?

 

[gone fishin]

What is the salinity of the bag water and the TTM bucket?

Did both fish come from the same source?

 

[Joe0813]

^ this... Also water is going to evaporate real quick in a small five gallon bucket. And if you don't top off the salinity is going to climb pretty quick

 

[Betaktical]

^ this... Also water is going to evaporate real quick in a small five gallon bucket. And if you don't top off the salinity is going to climb pretty quick

+1^^
New to the hobby but in 12 hours my salinity will climb almost 3. (Open top tank)


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[networkcrasher]

so, the salinity is obviously a big topic, but i checked it at least once a day and it didn't change much at all. Using a Milwaukee digital salinity checker. I keep the buckets covered with a towel to keep anything from getting into it.

The fish came from different stores. The bag water was only about .001 different between the fish store and the buckets, so i didn't do any sort of acclimation other than temp by floating the bag an hour and releasing. Both fish did fine in the first bucket. Both died in the second. The second fish had all of that floating particulate in the water though, which I still have no clue what it was. Almost reminded me of a piece of toilet paper that disintegrated.

I compared all the viable params between buckets during the switch, they both matched up perfectly.

 

[Betaktical]

Maybe just acclimate temp and throw in your DT. I've been reading a lot and it looks like a lot of people have had fish die from ttm. Newbie but just my opinion.


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[networkcrasher]

Just throwing the fish into the DT sort of defeats the whole purpose of TTM/QT

Part of me wonders if the fish dying is a good thing that it didn't make it into my DT.

 

[MiddletoM]

did you use freshly mixed salt? When I TTM I always leave my salt mixing for at least 24 hours before the fish are added to it.

 

[networkcrasher]

i mixed 6 gallons for probably 12 hours at the beginning, splitting it between the two buckets. I aerated both buckets starting at the same time, probably 6 hours before bringing the fish home from the store(s), so the second bucket had been aerating 3 days longer than the first one when the fish were moved.

 

[Green Chromis]

:fish1: Maybe there is something leaching from the bucket, that is causing your problems. How old are the buckets, and if they are not new, what was in them before? If they are used or old, buy a few new buckets from Home Depot, with the lids. :fish1:

 

[networkcrasher]

So here's the funny thing. All of the buckets are brand new, and never used for anything but ttm. Even funnier, both of the buckets that the fish died in are different (I have 3 buckets) because the second bucket didn't dry long enough so I had to use another.

I even had different air stones, a different heater (long story), and a different hiding spot (fake petco coral decoration vs pvc tee).

Honestly the only thing shared between the second buckets is from the airline check valve back to the pump. Even replaced the tubing between the valve and air stone.

 

[CindyK]

The owner of my LFS isn't a fan of TTM due to the stress catching and releasing places on the fish. He says he's seen numerous losses similar to what you describe. (Just repeating his story, I TTM'd the only two fish I have and they are fine)

Just a thought, if you are going to keep them in QT for a while anyway, maybe give the next one a few days to recover from traveling before you start your TTM protocol. Also catch him early in the morning before he "wakes up" to prevent having to chase him all over the bucket to net him. (I don't know if you had a hard time catching these guys or not, just my newbie two cents...I hate chasing mine I feel like I'm stressing them to death).

Cindy

ETA none of this accounts for the floating white stuff though.

 

[MondoBongo]

are you using any kind of ammonia locker like SeaChem Prime or AmQuel? it's a possibility that the ammonia test gave a false negative?

i'm really sorry for your losses, it sounds like you're doing everything right though.

the white precipitate floating around is an odd one. any chance of trying with two small 10 gallon tanks instead of the plastic buckets just in case? i know that shouldn't make a difference, but i am kind of grasping at straws here.

 

[scooter31707]

Out of 7 wrasses, I lose 3 to Prazi-Pro. It is known that some wrasses don't do well with PP. Just something to think about. The ones that survive did not eat at all when dosed with PP, but begin eating again once I did the transfer.

 

[gone fishin]

So they died after the first transfer, How did you do the transfer?

A net, collander or by hand. It is possible that if the fish were chased around maybe they were stressed. I personally use a collander to do the transfers.

Just out of curiosity the floaties in the bucket, do you think they may have been "lint" from the towel.

 

[texdoc77]

I TTM and have had fish losses with TTM and without. Bottom line, fish die. It happens to everyone. The way I try and limit losses during TTM is as follows:

1. Receive fish into holding QT with same salinity and temp acclimation. If the fish is from a LFS I drip acclimate. If shipped I match temp and salinity and dump them in.

2. Give them several days to acclimate to your lighting schedule, feeding schedule and overall to settle from the stress of shipment/movement.

3. Once you initiate TTM keep strict transfer protocol for temp and salinity. Make sure the temp and salinity match exactly. I use my "waste" water from my automatic water changes but if I did not do this I would make a batch of water at the same time and use it throughout to minimize changes. Add Prime on day #2. I also make a mark where the water is and fill it back up to this line every day unless I am trying to raise the salinity. Also I use a colander to catch and transfer.

4. Once done with TTM put them back in QT (separate from receiving QT) and at this point I would treat with prazipro or whatever your QT protocol you decide on.

To be honest it sounds like you are doing a good job, but I would focus on making TTM seamless between tanks. This has worked well for me.

On a separate note the issue of stress associated with TTM has been debated in multiple threads. Does TTM cause stress? Yes. Does it cause significant stress that kills fish. Not if done correctly. Fish undergo stress everyday in the wild, but they are healthy well fed fish with excellent water parameters. Try and match this with your TTM protocol.

 

[networkcrasher]

Sorry I didn't reply folks - didn't get an email notification that there were replies!

are you using any kind of ammonia locker like SeaChem Prime or AmQuel? it's a possibility that the ammonia test gave a false negative?

the white precipitate floating around is an odd one. any chance of trying with two small 10 gallon tanks instead of the plastic buckets just in case? i know that shouldn't make a difference, but i am kind of grasping at straws here.

No chemicals of any kind have been put in any of the buckets, other than Prazi for that second bucket on wrasse #1. I use the little ammonia badges, haven't seen one change color in the slightest. I try to clean most of the food out after feeding too, but I know these particular fish are shy, so I try to leave some behind too.

So they died after the first transfer, How did you do the transfer?

A net, collander or by hand. It is possible that if the fish were chased around maybe they were stressed. I personally use a collander to do the transfers.

Just out of curiosity the floaties in the bucket, do you think they may have been "lint" from the towel.

I use a little yellow hand colander as seen here. I haven't used a net on one in a while.

I'd basically have 24+ hours after the transfer and both died.

No to the lint - these were kitchen type cotton towels. It was a LOT of precipitate, so I'm still baffled as to what it was. Maybe some sort of bacterial bloom? Everything was super clean and well dried.

 

[Jeff4777]

My stocking is complete currently but I had the worst record with Wrasses by far compared to any other fish surviving through QT.