Update on they Tigerpyge

[melanotaenia]

most of this discussion is speculation, I would like to add. For all you guys know, the fish could be thriving and doing very well in his tank, and he just chooses to stay away from here, or has consulted others for advice from other boards, or fish stores, etc.

I don't think anyone on here should rush to judge that this fish is DEAD.

Additionally, before we all knew what we did about keeping reefs and saltwater fish, a lot of us kept fish that were not meant for aquariums, or kept fish in aquariums without the proper conditions, etc. because we did not know. And then we learn. Everyone on here learns from keeping any fish that originates from the wild and is caught in the ocean IMO.

 

[tcmfish]

He lives in CT, Old Town is in Chicago. I always wondered did they know who they were selling it to? and did they ship it to him or did he have someone pick it up and ship it to him, or something like that?

 

[username in use]

I take no issue with fish kid. Everyone has the right to spend their money on whatever they choose, and I take no issue with Old Town, everyone has the right to sell their product to whomever they choose, at whatever price they choose. I take issue with people jumping all over the kid because they didnt get to buy it and are upset that someone half their age got it, and because they all jumped down his throat, he wasnt able to learn the things that he could from this site before bad things started to happen. If people were supportive and helpful from the get go, he would have been a lot more open to peoples suggestions on treatment and care and may have been able to save the latz and, if it has perished, the tigerpyge as well.

 

[melanotaenia]

i take no issue with fish kid. Everyone has the right to spend their money on whatever they choose, and i take no issue with old town, everyone has the right to sell their product to whomever they choose, at whatever price they choose. I take issue with people jumping all over the kid because they didnt get to buy it and are upset that someone half their age got it, and because they all jumped down his throat, he wasnt able to learn the things that he could from this site before bad things started to happen. If people were supportive and helpful from the get go, he would have been a lot more open to peoples suggestions on treatment and care and may have been able to save the latz and, if it has perished, the tigerpyge as well.

x100000000000000000000000

 

[Amoore311]

Just wondering, all you guys that are upset with Fishkid that he bought the fish, why aren't you upset with Old Town, who knew the significance of what they had, for selling it (at double what the value was known to be) to a kid that had no experience?

IMO, they are the ones that should have known better, not a youngster with unlimited resources that had new excitement for this hobby that we''re all so (obviously) passionate about...

This fish came down to the Almighty Dollar. Is it Fishkids fault for having that magic number or the establishment that sold it to him?

This is basically my frame of thought as well about the whole situation. I can tell you at least 2 people on this forum who would have matched the price.

I don't blame a 16 year old kid that takes what is given to him. It is how kids are. Hate to reference the car analogy again, since it wasn't a very good one, BUT:

If you offered a 16 year old kid a Ferrari...

Is he going to turn it down b/c he doesn't deserve it...... or take it and show it off to everyone?


Edit:
In Reply to this:

I take no issue with fish kid. Everyone has the right to spend their money on whatever they choose, and I take no issue with Old Town, everyone has the right to sell their product to whomever they choose, at whatever price they choose.

If you are the seller of this type of Extremely Rare fish, I feel you should be obligated to sell it to a fitting owner. We aren't talking about a common tang that is sitting in a tank, costing a store owner money in the process, while he turns away potential buyers b/c he doesn't think they are fit to own the fish. This would be nice, but it isn't realistic. The circumstance we are talking about is different though.

The buyers list for this fish was absolutely massive, until they got greedy and doubled the price.

 

[jnc914]

Just wondering, all you guys that are upset with Fishkid that he bought the fish, why aren't you upset with Old Town, who knew the significance of what they had, for selling it (at double what the value was known to be) to a kid that had no experience?

IMO, they are the ones that should have known better, not a youngster with unlimited resources that had new excitement for this hobby that we''re all so (obviously) passionate about...

This fish came down to the Almighty Dollar. Is it Fishkids fault for having that magic number or the establishment that sold it to him?

You are right $$$ talks in this hobby. Old Town is also at fault, however they are a business who knew nothing of who was actually purchasing the fish, or what the buyers experience or background was at the time. The fish was offered to other fish keepers prior to Fishkid jumping in to buy it. If you remember Old Town, RB, and GBD were the ones that made it known that this fish was available. Only after certain RC members made a huge deal of it (rightfully so because of its rarity/beauty), did Fishkid swoop in and buy this fish. He wanted to impress, and he bought the fish without being prepared or having the experience to deal with.

 

[Ian]

I assume the fact that he was willing to pay the price they made up they did what they could to get it to him.

There were quite a few experienced fish keepers that wanted that fish for what it was considered to be worth but changed their mind when that price doubled...

If they truely cared about the well being of that fish they would have sold it to one of the many experienced people that were willing to buy it at a price that OT would have still made a profit...

 

[Ian]

...they are a business who knew nothing of who was actually purchasing the fish, or what the buyers experience or background was at the time.

I don't really believe this to be true...

 

[Amoore311]

To be honest, I really hope Fishkid is reading this and laughing at all of us. All the while his Tigerpyge is sitting happily in the tank behind him with a big fat belly.

 

[jnc914]

most of this discussion is speculation, I would like to add. For all you guys know, the fish could be thriving and doing very well in his tank, and he just chooses to stay away from here, or has consulted others for advice from other boards, or fish stores, etc.

I don't think anyone on here should rush to judge that this fish is DEAD.

Additionally, before we all knew what we did about keeping reefs and saltwater fish, a lot of us kept fish that were not meant for aquariums, or kept fish in aquariums without the proper conditions, etc. because we did not know. And then we learn. Everyone on here learns from keeping any fish that originates from the wild and is caught in the ocean IMO.

If the fish is alive or dead, why not respond to the RC members that attempted to speak to him privately? Members that he readily had private discussion with previously? In his 180 build thread, there was no mention of the Tigerpyge being moved into the tank, yet he added a candy basslet, a pair of bluespot jawfish, and coral. No mention of the Tigerpyge though, curious? The Latz definitely died, of what he believes was brook but he also thought it was ich, velvet, etc.. Anyone posting here that are from CT and know him, get him to respond. I have sent him PMs in the past and we have conversed regardless of our differing views. I wish him nothing but luck with that fish. I hope it is still alive.

 

[melanotaenia]

If the fish is alive or dead, why not respond to the RC members that attempted to speak to him privately? Members that he readily had private discussion with previously? In his 180 build thread, there was no mention of the Tigerpyge being moved into the tank, yet he added a candy basslet, a pair of bluespot jawfish, and coral. No mention of the Tigerpyge though, curious? The Latz definitely died, of what he believes was brook but he also thought it was ich, velvet, etc.. Anyone posting here that are from CT and know him, get him to respond. I have sent him PMs in the past and we have conversed regardless of our differing views. I wish him nothing but luck with that fish. I hope it is still alive.

That is the only hang up to this discussion, why he is not responding to PM; it could be that he just wants nothing to do with the members here, or it could be that he does not want to deal with the backlash if in fact the fish did die. Either way, I too am curious about the fish, because he was a pretty awesome fish.

 

[copps]

Matt (fishkid) would PM with many questions a while back. I gave him my cell and received a few calls from him... I was eager to help... I have a passion like many of us and always appreciate when someone so young has a passion as I did at his age. On my drive up to MACNA in Atlantic City in September I got a call from him asking when I'd arrive... when I entered the hotel he came running up to me, and I met him along with his grandfather... regardless of our feelings on the board here guys, remember he's a kid... he was 15 when I met him, and looked a young 15. Myself being only 32, it seems like yesterday I was his age with the same passion. At 15 I worked at a large regional aquarium shop with 100 saltwater tanks... my paycheck was often applied 100% to purchases and livestock (oh those were the days). I oohed and ahhed at $1000 asfur angels and $300 purple tangs and clarion angels (yes at that time they cost about the same as the Red Sea collection was limited!) as I cut my fishkeeping teeth with more inexpensive species. Would I have bought some of those expensive fish if I had someone in the family who would have paid for them? Looking at it now, with my adult judgment, I would say no... but when I was 15 would I have? Perhaps... who knows? I expressed to Matt the significance of the fish he had so that he understood.

Anyway, pertinent to what happened with the eibli/flavissima hybrid... A couple of months ago I received a call from Matt at around 11:30 pm... I was on my way home from a hockey game so it worked out... Matt was frantic... one of the bubbletip anemones had died in the system with the hybrid... Matt told me the water was so cloudy you could not see into the tank. He had done something like a 50% water change and the hybrid angel was on top of the tank huffing and puffing... His 180 gallon was apparently just fully cycled. Before that I had told him to not move the hybrid into his 180 for MONTHS at least... he asked me about pairing it and I said no to that to... he asked about moving the cube tank the fish was in... I basically told him not to rock the boat... leave that fish where it had been and had adapted... do not stress it with a potential pairing (this would obviously be his first attempt), and do not move it to the 180 even after cycling... many of us know that even after a tank is cycled there is still an adjustment period of months where the tank matures for the better...

So, faced with this dilemma, I told Matt to do what was his only option... move the hybrid to the 180 right away... he could have changed 100% of the water on that 30 gallon(?) the hybrid was in and there would still be a potential lethal ammonia spike... that fish was done if it wasn't moved, so he threw it in the 180... I believe he told me a few days later the fish was okay, but honestly I haven't heard from him in a while and the fish could be dead or alive...

This hybrid had quite an amazing story... it was collected in southern Indonesia, and is the resultant cross of an Indian Ocean lemonpeel and Centropyge eibli. For those interested you could read more about Indian Ocean lemonpeels here... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1298239. Indian Ocean lemonpeels were only documented from the Cocos Keeling Islands (where my fish came from), and tiny Christmas Island. Matt's hybrid was collected outside of the range of Indian Ocean lemonpeels seemingly... but looking at where it was collected I figured this cross resulted from a waif lemonpeel spawned from Christmas Island that settled in Indonesia... Very recently, my theory got some merit, as a full IO lemonpeel Centropyge flavissima was caught in the same place Matt's hybrid was caught... the first that I am aware of outside of Cocos or Christmas... amazing! Many hybrids like this occur when one species is rare and the other is common, resulting in the rare species spawning with the common one when unable to find a mate of its own species... For a couple of my stories on this check this thread... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1702055 and this thread... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1000540 Interestingly, this hybrid is not that uncommon at Cocos and even more common at Christmas... so perhaps we'll see another soon with hope... the flavissima complex, which contains Centropyge flavissima, C. eibli, and C. vrolikii, all hybridize with eachother... the other two hybrids are quite common in the trade...

Copps

 

[Sardaukar]

I assume the fact that he was willing to pay the price they made up they did what they could to get it to him.

There were quite a few experienced fish keepers that wanted that fish for what it was considered to be worth but changed their mind when that price doubled...

If they truely cared about the well being of that fish they would have sold it to one of the many experienced people that were willing to buy it at a price that OT would have still made a profit...

Some of you guys are ascribing too much to a business whose goal is to make money. This fish was essentially auctioned off, by raising the price until only one person was willing to pay it, as many rare/1 of a kind things are. The value of these kind of rare/hard to get things is purely arbitrary and is simply what the market will bear.

I am sure the employees involved would love to have seen this fish get the kind of care that it deserves (although you could argue that a tigerpyge doesn't deserve any more or less care than a 40 dollar flame angel), but expecting them to turn down hundreds of dollars of extra profit so they could find someone who was more experienced is simply not realistic.

 

[jnc914]

Matt (fishkid) would PM with many questions a while back. I gave him my cell and received a few calls from him... I was eager to help... I have a passion like many of us and always appreciate when someone so young has a passion as I did at his age. On my drive up to MACNA in Atlantic City in September I got a call from him asking when I'd arrive... when I entered the hotel he came running up to me, and I met him along with his grandfather... regardless of our feelings on the board here guys, remember he's a kid... he was 15 when I met him, and looked a young 15. Myself being only 32, it seems like yesterday I was his age with the same passion. At 15 I worked at a large regional aquarium shop with 100 saltwater tanks... my paycheck was often applied 100% to purchases and livestock (oh those were the days). I oohed and ahhed at $1000 asfur angels and $300 purple tangs and clarion angels (yes at that time they cost about the same as the Red Sea collection was limited!) as I cut my fishkeeping teeth with more inexpensive species. Would I have bought some of those expensive fish if I had someone in the family who would have paid for them? Looking at it now, with my adult judgment, I would say no... but when I was 15 would I have? Perhaps... who knows? I expressed to Matt the significance of the fish he had so that he understood.

Anyway, pertinent to what happened with the eibli/flavissima hybrid... A couple of months ago I received a call from Matt at around 11:30 pm... I was on my way home from a hockey game so it worked out... Matt was frantic... one of the bubbletip anemones had died in the system with the hybrid... Matt told me the water was so cloudy you could not see into the tank. He had done something like a 50% water change and the hybrid angel was on top of the tank huffing and puffing... His 180 gallon was apparently just fully cycled. Before that I had told him to not move the hybrid into his 180 for MONTHS at least... he asked me about pairing it and I said no to that to... he asked about moving the cube tank the fish was in... I basically told him not to rock the boat... leave that fish where it had been and had adapted... do not stress it with a potential pairing (this would obviously be his first attempt), and do not move it to the 180 even after cycling... many of us know that even after a tank is cycled there is still an adjustment period of months where the tank matures for the better...

So, faced with this dilemma, I told Matt to do what was his only option... move the hybrid to the 180 right away... he could have changed 100% of the water on that 30 gallon(?) the hybrid was in and there would still be a potential lethal ammonia spike... that fish was done if it wasn't moved, so he threw it in the 180... I believe he told me a few days later the fish was okay, but honestly I haven't heard from him in a while and the fish could be dead or alive...

This hybrid had quite an amazing story... it was collected in southern Indonesia, and is the resultant cross of an Indian Ocean lemonpeel and Centropyge eibli. For those interested you could read more about Indian Ocean lemonpeels here... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1298239. Indian Ocean lemonpeels were only documented from the Cocos Keeling Islands (where my fish came from), and tiny Christmas Island. Matt's hybrid was collected outside of the range of Indian Ocean lemonpeels seemingly... but looking at where it was collected I figured this cross resulted from a waif lemonpeel spawned from Christmas Island that settled in Indonesia... Very recently, my theory got some merit, as a full IO lemonpeel Centropyge flavissima was caught in the same place Matt's hybrid was caught... the first that I am aware of outside of Cocos or Christmas... amazing! Many hybrids like this occur when one species is rare and the other is common, resulting in the rare species spawning with the common one when unable to find a mate of its own species... For a couple of my stories on this check this thread... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1702055 and this thread... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1000540 Interestingly, this hybrid is not that uncommon at Cocos and even more common at Christmas... so perhaps we'll see another soon with hope... the flavissima complex, which contains Centropyge flavissima, C. eibli, and C. vrolikii, all hybridize with eachother... the other two hybrids are quite common in the trade...

Copps

John- Thanks for the update and additional info on this specimen. You shed a little more light on the speculation of this thread. It is good that he at least reached out to you for some guidance. So....how long before you have your own Tigerpyge?

 

[Ian]

Some of you guys are ascribing too much to a business whose goal is to make money. This fish was essentially auctioned off, by raising the price until only one person was willing to pay it, as many rare/1 of a kind things are. The value of these kind of rare/hard to get things is purely arbitrary and is simply what the market will bear.

I am sure the employees involved would love to have seen this fish get the kind of care that it deserves (although you could argue that a tigerpyge doesn't deserve any more or less care than a 40 dollar flame angel), but expecting them to turn down hundreds of dollars of extra profit so they could find someone who was more experienced is simply not realistic.

I was merely just trying to make a point. The business ethics of Old Town are none of my business.

Relating to your point though, expecting a 15 year old kid to not spend money like he has to spend on something he was so excited about is also simply not realistic

Most everything goes both ways. Im sure we all did dumb stuff when we were 15 that many others suggested we don't do, I surely know I did and have the scars to prove it. Unfortunately Matt's "dumb Stuff" involved a very unique fish.....

 

[jhawkor]

Matt (fishkid) would PM with many questions a while back. I gave him my cell and received a few calls from him... I was eager to help... I have a passion like many of us and always appreciate when someone so young has a passion as I did at his age. On my drive up to MACNA in Atlantic City in September I got a call from him asking when I'd arrive... when I entered the hotel he came running up to me, and I met him along with his grandfather... regardless of our feelings on the board here guys, remember he's a kid... he was 15 when I met him, and looked a young 15. Myself being only 32, it seems like yesterday I was his age with the same passion. At 15 I worked at a large regional aquarium shop with 100 saltwater tanks... my paycheck was often applied 100% to purchases and livestock (oh those were the days). I oohed and ahhed at $1000 asfur angels and $300 purple tangs and clarion angels (yes at that time they cost about the same as the Red Sea collection was limited!) as I cut my fishkeeping teeth with more inexpensive species. Would I have bought some of those expensive fish if I had someone in the family who would have paid for them? Looking at it now, with my adult judgment, I would say no... but when I was 15 would I have? Perhaps... who knows? I expressed to Matt the significance of the fish he had so that he understood.

Anyway, pertinent to what happened with the eibli/flavissima hybrid... A couple of months ago I received a call from Matt at around 11:30 pm... I was on my way home from a hockey game so it worked out... Matt was frantic... one of the bubbletip anemones had died in the system with the hybrid... Matt told me the water was so cloudy you could not see into the tank. He had done something like a 50% water change and the hybrid angel was on top of the tank huffing and puffing... His 180 gallon was apparently just fully cycled. Before that I had told him to not move the hybrid into his 180 for MONTHS at least... he asked me about pairing it and I said no to that to... he asked about moving the cube tank the fish was in... I basically told him not to rock the boat... leave that fish where it had been and had adapted... do not stress it with a potential pairing (this would obviously be his first attempt), and do not move it to the 180 even after cycling... many of us know that even after a tank is cycled there is still an adjustment period of months where the tank matures for the better...

So, faced with this dilemma, I told Matt to do what was his only option... move the hybrid to the 180 right away... he could have changed 100% of the water on that 30 gallon(?) the hybrid was in and there would still be a potential lethal ammonia spike... that fish was done if it wasn't moved, so he threw it in the 180... I believe he told me a few days later the fish was okay, but honestly I haven't heard from him in a while and the fish could be dead or alive...

This hybrid had quite an amazing story... it was collected in southern Indonesia, and is the resultant cross of an Indian Ocean lemonpeel and Centropyge eibli. For those interested you could read more about Indian Ocean lemonpeels here... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1298239. Indian Ocean lemonpeels were only documented from the Cocos Keeling Islands (where my fish came from), and tiny Christmas Island. Matt's hybrid was collected outside of the range of Indian Ocean lemonpeels seemingly... but looking at where it was collected I figured this cross resulted from a waif lemonpeel spawned from Christmas Island that settled in Indonesia... Very recently, my theory got some merit, as a full IO lemonpeel Centropyge flavissima was caught in the same place Matt's hybrid was caught... the first that I am aware of outside of Cocos or Christmas... amazing! Many hybrids like this occur when one species is rare and the other is common, resulting in the rare species spawning with the common one when unable to find a mate of its own species... For a couple of my stories on this check this thread... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1702055 and this thread... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1000540 Interestingly, this hybrid is not that uncommon at Cocos and even more common at Christmas... so perhaps we'll see another soon with hope... the flavissima complex, which contains Centropyge flavissima, C. eibli, and C. vrolikii, all hybridize with eachother... the other two hybrids are quite common in the trade...

Copps

Your young self sounds a lot like me. Only I work at a grocery store not an LFS, but still I'm so addicted that almost 100% of my paycheck goes straight into this hobby. It sounds like fishkid is the same except that he had his grandpa to fund his hobby. At least he was eager to learn.

 

[copps]

John- Thanks for the update and additional info on this specimen. You shed a little more light on the speculation of this thread. It is good that he at least reached out to you for some guidance.

Yeah... Matt is a good kid with good intentions... my only point of contention with him involved not the price of this fish, but the rarity... there are many expensive fish that are regularly available like conspics and interrupta, but this fish was special. I passed on it after seeing the price, as although I've spent more on fish I was just not willing to spend that on this fish. Matt would have been just as excited with something more common, but I feel he purchased this after reading about its significance from others like myself. I have had this passion (or disease, depending on whether or not you look at it from my or my wife's perspective) for angelfish for over 20 years... For an analogy better than the car one perhaps this would do... A coworker of mine keeps poison dart frogs, which I've considered (but I will not get, unless I also want a divorce). The common species are quite stunning... If I had just gotten into the hobby, and there was some amazingly rare hybrid offered on the level of Tigerpyge, I would not feel comfortable getting it to cut my teeth with and learn on even if I had the money... but again, Matt was 15, and really a good kid, so I expressed this to him in more of a father/son way than any demeaning way. I helped in any way I could, as I remember myself at that age and the influence older more experienced guys had. Just a few weeks ago I had some people over my house, including local friends and noted speaker and friend Scott Fellman (who I met years ago when I overheard him say "hotumatua"... true story )... we were all hanging out having a good time at my house. A local 15 year old kid was also visiting... a really good kid... he was stepping down in my fishroom from a stepladder when I heard a crack... he had stepped on my calcium reactor and broke it... I stood there for about 15 seconds with my head tilted like a dog hearing a high pitched noise in disbelief as water spilled onto the floor... needless to say, that killed the mood... After some swapping around, some two part solution, an expensive repair, and a whole lot of time, I was back to normal... he offered to pay me, but I told him that the repair cost money meant a whole lot more to him at his age than it did to me, and I wouldn't take a cent... on one condition... when he was in my position in 15 years and the same thing happened he wouldn't charge the kid either!

So....how long before you have your own Tigerpyge?

There was actually one collected a while back by the joc collectors earmarked for me, but it carpetsurfed before leaving Cocos-Keeling (I guess you would call it "beachsurfing" there)... what I'd like even more is Centrpyge cf. vrolikii from Rowley Shoals...

 

[copps]

Your young self sounds a lot like me. Only I work at a grocery store not an LFS, but still I'm so addicted that almost 100% of my paycheck goes straight into this hobby.

Enjoy these days while they last! :bounce3: Going through years of that though builds character and makes you appreciate the expensive stuff so much more when you get to the point in life you could afford it, or can't afford it but buy it anyway... On top of that you better develop perhaps the most overlooked reefkeeping skill... my friend Sanjay Joshi calls it the WAF... or wife acceptance factor...:love1:... without that all of the other reefkeeping skills are moot!

 

[teesquare]

Truer words were never written John!

As well - we marry marry 'em for love - but we stay together because of their tolerance!:lol:
T

 

[copps]

That's funny... people always ask me if my wife supports my obsession and I say no... she tolerates it... If she was still in the support stage I would probably push her further, taking the 35-40 angels I now own perhaps up to all of the ~90 species until she was back to just tolerating! You cannot call yourself a hardcore reefer unless you have had your significant other :blown: you at least a few dozen times...:fun2: