[URGENT] Fin Rot + Ich=Disaster

[E.D.E]

Hi everyone, I'm having a huge problem right now with my fish. Let me give you a background story about my tank and how my problems have risen:
180 fowlr
75 gallon 'fuge
nitrates-- forty ppm-- I have a pred tank, forgive me
ammonia-- 0ppm
everything else is fine


I ordered a Goldenheart Trigger for diver's den a couple weeks ago. I couldn't pass up on it, as it's a fish I've wanted forever. Unfortunately, the temp. outside was around 30-35 degrees. The fish was on a truck for 2 days to get to my house. Now, my mother (I'm 15 myself) does NOT believe in qt tanks, even though I'd know I'd need one. Nope. Just to much electricity. SO, the fish came, and we dripped it-- not realizing that we should've floated it first. We'd been dripping the poor thing for around 3 hours, and the temp was still incredibly low, so we had no choice but to put him in. All was well until 3 days later, when we saw the 1st signs of ich. We thought he'd pull through, as every fish we've ever had before had pulled through a bout of ich. Then we noticed that he had "bites" out of his top fin-- I have a puffer, a good 8 inches-- so I thought they had just gotten into a small fight and he got bit. All was good for another two to three days, until we had a HUGE BLOOM OF ICH, and everything was covered-- my vlamingi tang, puffer, parrotfish, and indian trigger. We started treating with Kick-Ich (snake oil), and nothing's happened. Today my gold heart died, and I'm heart broken. My tang is starting to show signs of what I think could be "fin rot", but they're very small "bites". How should I treat this in my main tank? My fish are all too big for qt!
I'm going to try to do hypo, but how should I treat the fin rot? I should also mention that the gold heart
s top fin was practically gone, and had red spots going into his body.All fish were and are still eating well.
Someone, please help! My fish are my children, and this is breaking my heart! :headwally:

 

[sandwi54]

First of all, I'm sorry but trying to save electricity on a QT??? The small filter + heater + power head for a QT probably add up to less than $10 a month. The price of a goldheart trigger + potential dead livestocks will pay for the QT electricity for more than two years. I'm not bashing you but simply trying to show some common sense.

Let's get back to the problem. You can do hypo in the DT, but given that all your fish are heavily infested, that's not the method I would use since hypo is not an aggressive treatment. I would recommend pull all your fish out inot a large 75 gallon QT and dose cupramine immediately. Take 3 days to ramp up the dosage to 0.36ppm, or 0.12ppm per day. I take it that you don't have a cycled HOB filter to use for QT. You will have huge water quality issue ahead of you and you will likely have to do large (>50%) water change per day to combat ammonia/nitrite. Make sure there's absolutely NO ammonia in the QT. Test twice a day, and if any is detected, do 50% water change. I would wait to treat for fin rot until ich is controlled by copper. Once that's done, use maracyn 2 for saltwater to treat for fin rot.

Now you see the importance of QT. Not only did you lose money on the fish, but you will also waste a lot of money on salt to make water for the large water changes you will be doing everyday for a few weeks. Hopefully this will be a good lesson...

 

[E.D.E]

First of all, I'm sorry but trying to save electricity on a QT??? The small filter + heater + power head for a QT probably add up to less than $10 a month. The price of a goldheart trigger + potential dead livestocks will pay for the QT electricity for more than two years. I'm not bashing you but simply trying to show some common sense.

Let's get back to the problem. You can do hypo in the DT, but given that all your fish are heavily infested, that's not the method I would use since hypo is not an aggressive treatment. I would recommend pull all your fish out inot a large 75 gallon QT and dose cupramine immediately. Take 3 days to ramp up the dosage to 0.36ppm, or 0.12ppm per day. I take it that you don't have a cycled HOB filter to use for QT. You will have huge water quality issue ahead of you and you will likely have to do large (>50%) water change per day to combat ammonia/nitrite. Make sure there's absolutely NO ammonia in the QT. Test twice a day, and if any is detected, do 50% water change. I would wait to treat for fin rot until ich is controlled by copper. Once that's done, use maracyn 2 for saltwater to treat for fin rot.

Now you see the importance of QT. Not only did you lose money on the fish, but you will also waste a lot of money on salt to make water for the large water changes you will be doing everyday for a few weeks. Hopefully this will be a good lesson...

How am I using copper in another tank when I have a puffer and tang that have ich. The fish with the worst ich is the tang obviously, and I've read that exposure to copper can mess them up really bad. Is this true? Should I still use copper?

 

[E.D.E]

First of all, I'm sorry but trying to save electricity on a QT??? The small filter + heater + power head for a QT probably add up to less than $10 a month. The price of a goldheart trigger + potential dead livestocks will pay for the QT electricity for more than two years. I'm not bashing you but simply trying to show some common sense.

You're not bashing me, it's my mom that doesn't like qt. I wanted to use qt myself. But you know what? We only have so many outlets to use, you know? I see your point, and believe me, I wish that I could've convinced her to use qt. :headwallblue:

 

[MrTuskfish]

How am I using copper in another tank when I have a puffer and tang that have ich. The fish with the worst ich is the tang obviously, and I've read that exposure to copper can mess them up really bad. Is this true? Should I still use copper?

There is a school of thought that says copper can interfere with the micro-fauna in a tangs digestive system. Tangs are possibly the most common fish to treat with copper, due to their susceptibility to ich. I don't often give advice on our forum based on only my personal experience. But; I've treated at least 50 tangs (mine, friends, and those of 3 LFS & their customers) and have never heard of one that didn't bounce back after the ich/copper. I'm not counting two tangs; a Powder blue and a Scopas, if my old memory still works, that died because they were so covered with ich that they couldn't breath and treatment never really started. IMO & IME; copper & tangs is nothing to worry about. I've never read anything, other than an occasional anecdotal account, that said any different.

 

[E.D.E]

There is a school of thought that says copper can interfere with the micro-fauna in a tangs digestive system. Tangs are possibly the most common fish to treat with copper, due to their susceptibility to ich. I don't often give advice on our forum based on only my personal experience. But; I've treated at least 50 tangs (mine, friends, and those of 3 LFS & their customers) and have never heard of one that didn't bounce back after the ich/copper. I'm not counting two tangs; a Powder blue and a Scopas, if my old memory still works, that died because they were so covered with ich that they couldn't breath and treatment never really started. IMO & IME; copper & tangs is nothing to worry about. I've never read anything, other than an occasional anecdotal account, that said any different.

Makes sense. But what about my puffer? Puffers don't have any scales, and scaleless fish don't mix well with copper. Should I just move him to another tank and do hypo with him?

 

[E.D.E]

double post, my bad

 

[MrTuskfish]

Makes sense. But what about my puffer? Puffers don't have any scales, and scaleless fish don't mix well with copper. Should I just move him to another tank and do hypo with him?

........or you could hypo all the fish.

 

[E.D.E]

........or you could hypo all the fish.

True. That's what I'm going to do, but since people are recommending me to use copper, and that hypo isn't aggressive enough, I got confused for a moment.

Update:
My tang has stopped eating, as well as the dwarf lion in my refugium. Did a 30 gallon water change today. Got salinity down from .021 to .019 to initiate hypo.
Added pimafix in order to combat fin rot.:uhoh3:

 

[MrTuskfish]

Like sandwi54, above, I prefer copper; but your puffer & lion may force you to use hypo. I have mixed feelings about copper and certain fish; but will stick with what most folks suggest.
I'm confused now; are you using copper in the DT? If so (and you're switching to hypo), use carbon & WCs to get it ASAP. If you think copper caused fish to stop eating in one day, you're dosing way too fast.That will not only threaten the lion & puffer; but kill any invert and most of the micro-life in your LR, substrate, etc. Its also very hard to monitor copper level in a tank with LR, etc. Any ich treatment is very tough in a DT, because of this die-off. Ammonia is a problem and you must monitor and do WCs as needed. Hypo is very effective, but must be exact, a well-calibrated hydrometer is a must and an ATO really helps. You can use ammonia neutralizers (Prime, Amquel, etc) with hypo. You have created a real problem without a QT, show your mother any book on our hobby and maybe she'll learn too. I don't like this scenario, but do the best you can with what you've got. then, don't get any new fish until you've read their requirements and have a decent QT. Oh yeah, I'd wait with the fin-rot issue, unless it looks infected. IMO, Primafix is not much of a med.