Venting... so how bad is your LFS?

cd77

Premium Member
Ok, so I've finally gotten around to get out of the house today (I very rarely get sick, but this last one had me down for nearly a month!) .. fortunately in that time I've a lot of time to do online price comparisons of things I've recently shopped for online or plan to purchase down the road (when my wife lets me put a huge marine tank in a wall divider!) but today I was BLOWN AWAY by the prices my LFS gets away with.. A few examples:

Purple tip monster acro frag: $60
Devil’s Hand frag: $40
Medium Leather Toadstool: $75
Kenya Tree (very small): $40
Blue tip acro frag: $60
1.87L Diamond Activated Carbon: $20

and this one floored me:

Std. bucket of Instant Ocean: $66!!!

Comparing similar prices to other place, like Inland Aquatics, (or dry goods from Fosters & Smith) I can't believe how they get away with this! At these rates, I could buy retail from other places and still have a 100%+ markup if I opened my own shop.. amazing.

Wasn't sure where to post this.. mod can move it to the lounge for all I care :)
 
Heres the way I see it.LFS do have overhead to pay and cant sell most goods at cost like online vendors IE Dr.Foster.Let me ask you this quetion.If something goes wrong in your tank will you be able to go to your online vendor and get help or another part for something asap?I know some lfs are high but 9 times out of 10 if you talk to them they will help you out with the cost of a product.
 
Yeah It blows my mind how much some places will charge for their dry goods as well as frags sometimes. I'm all for supporting my LFS but when it starts costing me oodles to get the goods I can't swing it... I've started a friendship with a local guy that runs an all around pet store and he will give me good deals on stuff. I get all frozen foods at cost and he will order me stuff at near cost so it's cool to know people.

I also purchase full priced items from him as they're cheaper than some of the other places but it's more or less just supporting your hobby as well as someone that's running the store.

That being said I do buy online for certain things (lights and what not) as the markup is easily 100% over what I can get it for online.
 
Feel lucky you can get a selection like that from a LFS I just got a quality store 30 mile away until then it was a two and a half hour drive.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11071452#post11071452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jjmcat
Heres the way I see it.LFS do have overhead to pay and cant sell most goods at cost like online vendors IE Dr.Foster.Let me ask you this quetion.If something goes wrong in your tank will you be able to go to your online vendor and get help or another part for something asap?I know some lfs are high but 9 times out of 10 if you talk to them they will help you out with the cost of a product.

Your LFS must be a first class operation.

When I need a (quite unique) filter sock for the custom sump system they purchased through Pro Clear Aquatics, I was told to wait 2 weeks.. 6 weeks later and nada. Things like this a competent store should have on hand.

As far as help goes.. I won't even go there. I'll get different advice depending upon which employee I speak with and if it's broken, it's "return it to us and we'll give you a replacement.. if we have it in stock" (not easy to deal with, with critical components)

F&S (for example) makes money.. so there is a markup there already. A 100% retail markup on top of someone else's retail price cannot be justified by whatever expense overhead they may have -- no way!

With respect to their frags (which sell for $60 versus $10 at other places) we're talking a 6x retail hike... the difference being only that they have to deal with people in person (as opposed to over the phone, email, etc..) -- they both have buildings, both have the same requirements for care of livestock, etc..

nu unh.. doesn't add up. It's just the local market out here that they're gleefully raping.
 
I dont think your LFS makes as much money as you think they do. Granted their markup is huge don't get me wrong, but the big difference between your LFS and F&S is the volume they sell.

I am all for affordable prices for reefers or aquarists overall it brings more people into the hobby that would otherwise be put off due to the price.
 
I hear ya, silvers.. I'm fortunate to live near a decent size city with a lot of opportunities.

Come on though.. $66 for a bucket of IO.. I can get nearly twice that with shipping included through F&S right now.

I'm going out of my way to find high quality places that will ship. Supporting your local economy (or LPS) is one thing (and trust me, I'm all for capitalism) but when it gets to that point I'm looking elsewhere... I'll continue buying dog food and kitty litter from them, but short of that it's hard for me to even look in the fish section without wanting to scream.
 
I would never trust the opinions of my LFS.

For a mushroom rock with three (yes, three) they charge $120!! :eek2:

Live rock is $12/lb for Fiji and $16/lb for Marshall
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11071584#post11071584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by risika67
I would never trust the opinions of my LFS.

For a mushroom rock with three (yes, three) they charge $120!! :eek2:

Live rock is $12/lb for Fiji and $16/lb for Marshall

Holy mother of mushrooms, batman!

See, thats not even funny - in a competitive market we shouldn't be seeing disparities like this. Whether it is a walk-in brick and mortar strip-mall location or a warehouse in BFE buying in bulk, it just doesn't seem right.

Most retail owners I know get an average of 30%-40% markup (of-course, depending upon the product, time of year, market share, competition, etc..) but when you can charge a 100% to 600% markup on someone else's retail price, something seems wrong to me.
 
Yea, I know, tell me about it! Their cheapest coral is the yellow polyps. $80 for a small rock.

My SPS frags are cheaper than that!!
 
Oh well... I guess if the company is doing OK, then people are willing to pay their prices and they've no reason to lower them.

When I do the math though, even if I lose 50% of the live purchase I make online, I still come out a winner in contrast to buying from my LPS -- and frankly that is exactly what I intend to do from here on out; buy online. (not only that, but most reputable online live fish/coral suppliers provide a guarantee just as good as my LFS..)
 
Yea, it's completely worth it to me too.

Luckily, 2 hours away from me is Dr F&S retail store. Their prices are a little higher than whats on their website for livestock but only by $10 max. It is cost effective to drive there, even with gas how it is, and buy my stuff there.

Honestly, their stuff looks way healthier than my LFS too
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11071536#post11071536 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cd77
Your LFS must be a first class operation.

When I need a (quite unique) filter sock for the custom sump system they purchased through Pro Clear Aquatics, I was told to wait 2 weeks.. 6 weeks later and nada. Things like this a competent store should have on hand.

As far as help goes.. I won't even go there. I'll get different advice depending upon which employee I speak with and if it's broken, it's "return it to us and we'll give you a replacement.. if we have it in stock" (not easy to deal with, with critical components)

F&S (for example) makes money.. so there is a markup there already. A 100% retail markup on top of someone else's retail price cannot be justified by whatever expense overhead they may have -- no way!

With respect to their frags (which sell for $60 versus $10 at other places) we're talking a 6x retail hike... the difference being only that they have to deal with people in person (as opposed to over the phone, email, etc..) -- they both have buildings, both have the same requirements for care of livestock, etc..

nu unh.. doesn't add up. It's just the local market out here that they're gleefully raping.

Wow you all must have it bad where your from.Our LFS do carry filter socks and about everything else as well.For example if click on my little red house not one of my corals came from out of state.So let me ask you this.The lfs you speak of is it the only LFS in your area?If so then tell them about there priceing and tell them you can get something else cheaper from an online vendor.If they come down in price then they must not want your money.The only thing I get offline is salt but its because noone in my state has it that I know of.We have had a few LFS that were high and wouldnt budge on price and now there no longer in business.They think dumb hobbiest he doesnt know what I pay for this.
 
what you need to remember is that a lot of LFSs buy their stuff from distributors, not straight from the manufacturer. They simply dont have the volume. My LFS sells IO for $65 per bucket, not because they want to, but because they pay over $55 for it!

There will always be stores that take advantage, but IMO the majority at the Dis-advantage when it comes to competing against the big guys.
 
Everyone LFS is differnt. Dont stereotype =P.

I just have one LFS that I go to that is really nice.

6$ a lb for any type of LR
Acro Frags 10$ each
Humongous rose anemones go for 50$

Everythings cheap, healthy, and they have good service, free water changes.
but then again, it is just a family ran store that really cares about their fish. I have met the owner's dad and he gets really mad at his sons if there is any bad looking fish. Also they own the store next to it to help pay the rent. So its not that bad.
 
I wonder what is to stop a LFS from buying directly from a larger retailer that sells at prices lower (say, $30 for IO versus $55 for what they pay) and re-sell it?

To answer your question, jjmcat -- yep, plenty of PetSmarts and PetCo's around here! :D Well, we also have premium aquatics in the loop but it's a bit of a drive for me -- and I think they have odd store hours if I recall correctly.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11071906#post11071906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OnoIgotICH
Everyone LFS is differnt. Dont stereotype =P.

:cool: Not stereotyping, just venting!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11071769#post11071769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by poppin_fresh
what you need to remember is that a lot of LFSs buy their stuff from distributors, not straight from the manufacturer. They simply dont have the volume. My LFS sells IO for $65 per bucket, not because they want to, but because they pay over $55 for it!

There will always be stores that take advantage, but IMO the majority at the Dis-advantage when it comes to competing against the big guys.

My old LFS was really good. The prices were a little high compared to online, but the owner was a great guy, so I wanted to do my part to keep them in business. After moving to the Boston area, I've found that here they tend to be 2-2.5x the price of online. For example for a 4x65 Coralife PC fixture, online they were about $200-250 for a basic fixture, the LFS wanted ~$450. They could just buy it online and mark it up to $300-$350 and still make a nice profit. At first, I was willing to go there for convenience and to support local business, but I found that they're incredibly rude, it's almost like they don't want to sell you anything... So I don't buy anything there anymore and now I order everything online.
 
We just moved to a new city, and there's only one LFS here - there are a few pet stores and Wal-Mart has some FW fish, but marines are only available in one location AFAIK. The first time I visited, I was very impressed with the health of their fish (all the corals are bleached and sickly though), and hardly noticed the prices as I was only window shopping - I knew they were high, but just how high didn't register. Last time I went in, I took a more serious look around and nearly gagged on the prices. A few examples:

scolyoma (severely bleached & receding) - $149.00
condy anemones (severely bleached) - ~$40.00 IIRC
clown goby - $36.00
small flame angel - $149.00 (yes, you read that right)

These were not exceptions, they're just the prices I can remember accurately. Everything was priced at least 100% higher than in Toronto; I said to my hubby it's like they're going to the city and buying from Big Al's, then marking up as though BA's prices were wholesale. Not one coral looked healthy, some were nearly dead, and none had been reduced in price. I will say though, these folks have the healthiest-looking marine fish I've ever seen in a LFS. After I had time to think about it though, I realized it may be because they sell very little, and the fish have lots of time to rest and relax at the store, in contrast to high-turnover stores in the city.

I would still attempt to shop there, if it weren't for my latest experience - this sealed the deal, I won't walk through their doors again. Here's the story:
This past week I went to pick up 4 mollies with a friend. Asked for 1 male & 3 females, and received four males. I didn't notice until we got home; I wasn't paying close attention, but then again the employee assured me she knew the difference and I didn't want to hover.

Went back with my hubby the next day (20 minute drive) and explained what happened, and that I needed some females (the males were all trying to mate with one another, and the goal of having mollies is for them to breed and make food for the reefs). The manager grunted, assigned an employee who admitted right off she didn't know how to sex livebearers. I offered to help her select the fish, and he grunted at me, walking off with the employee. I followed them to the FW section, where he proceeded to tell her how to sex balloon mollies by their dorsal fins, lyretails by their tails, and sailfins by something else (not their dorsal or anal fins). I politely explained that this may have been what caused the previous day's issue, as many female lyretails in the tank had lyretails, not just males. I explained that all livebearers have a gonopodium and that's how I tell male from female, and received a grunt in reply. Then he insulted the employee by saying 'she'll never remember that'. Right, because it's easier to memorize a different method for guppies, three kinds of mollies, and swordtails than it is to learn to recognize one feature shared by all livebearers :rolleyes:

I asked for a deal, to make up for the inconvenience of returning to the store, and he grunted, then asked why (I had just explained my reasoning in detail). The employee understood, and gave me 3 females for the price of 5, but the manager whined (literally) that this was losing him money and demanded two of the males back. I'm going to drive 20 minutes home, 20 minutes back, to return two $3 fish? Give me a break.

So I took my mollies, walked to the cash extremely dissatisfied with the manager's attitude, thanked the girls for their lovely service (the staff is great there) and vowed never to return, until the place is under new management. From this point forward, I'll be traveling two hours into the city to buy fish and corals - even if I include the price of gas, it ends up being less expensive, and I won't have to deal with a whiny grunter.
 
Well, you guys may be venting, but I, for one, am tired of your guys venting BY stereotyping.

I worked in an excellent LFS that kept costs down as much as possible. I now shop at a more expensive LFS and choose to do so because I know I am making up for the additional costs in excellent customer service and downright stellar care of their livestock. The care alone of their livestock is enough to make up for the added cost, but the fact that they carry frags and do look for aquaculture specimens where possible is icing on the cake.

The fact of the matter is, complain all you want, but YOU make the choice. Not them. There's no one stealing your money and handing it over to the LFS. There's no one holding a gun to your head and making you use that credit card to buy an overpriced coral. There's no elaborate Saw-esque contraption dooming you to the fate of a horrific torture and/or death if you don't go throw your money away to anything overly costly. YOU do it yourself. And, if you have anyone to blame, don't blame your LFS because they put up high prices. Look in the mirror because, honestly, even when faced with expensive LFSs, there are ways to save money.

A.) Evaluate cost against what you are getting in return.
There are TONS of hidden benefits that can be driving up the cost of a product. In both the LFS I worked at and the one I currently choose to support, I find that the care alone of the animals validated the cost of both the animal and the stock since the stores had an increased overhead to continue to provide the best care possible. Both stores also elected to use same day air frieght, to support vendors that guarantee no-cyanide capture, and to order aquaculture whenever possible. All of these factors drive up cost. I have seen truly EXPENSIVE shops that made the prices you guys listed seem downright cheap because they QTed in house and/or supported MAC certified collection. Ask questions of your LFS and consider the answers carefully. You may be surprised to find that you're getting a much more excellent product for your cost or that the markup is more out of control than you thought. Either way, just pegging the blame on the LFS without doing more market research is just plain foolish. I mean, would you buy a house just by looking at it for whatever the listed price was without asking questions, looking at other comps, or inspection? No. You'd be downright stupid not to do more homework before writing a house off as over or under priced.

B.) Get involved in your local network, clubs, and aquarium societies.
This is often the best way to save money and offering the best peace of mind. Many hobbyists upgrading or downgrading their tank will put equipment up for sale or trade for really cheap, giving you both a steal of a price and the green knowledge that it won't just be thrown out. You can also get involved in the frag network which will yield cheaper corals and the knowledge that you are being a responsible reefkeeper in supporting aquaculture as opposed to wild harvest and especially as opposed to cyanide capture. Many clubs will also engage in group buys which can get participants quantity discounts or cheaper shipping costs (as the costs to pack and ship are shared).

C.) Shop around.
This can mean loads of things. Check out various LFSs, online vendors, and local clubs both in your area and outside your area. You could find that your entire area is overpriced (which could indicate that your LFSs aren't seeing as much of a profit in saltwater due to a lack of interest, or could indicate another factor raising costs, such as difficulty obtaining specimens, local laws and regulations, etc.). You could also find much cheaper stores not too far away. You could find rebates and coupons. You could find that your estimates of cost are off.

D.) Become a handy-person!
We live in a society where everyone thinks things need to be store bought to be quality. If you have the know how and the proper tools to do something.... why don't you? No, not all of us are handy people. I can personally be a walking lesson in Murphy's Law somedays, so I'm mighty surprised I'm allowed in the same room as powertools. However, you can save money in simple, easy ways that don't require degrees in engineering or heavy machinery, such as making your own frozen foods (there are some really simple recipes out there- I believe even Eric Borneman's recipe can be found in books and online).


The bottom line is, if you're just walking into an LFS and paying what you think are outrageous prices, moaning and groaning is a pointless waste of keystrokes. You might as well just bend over and.... well.... you get the idea.
 
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