vodka or pellets

[ChuckG]

Good question platax88..

I wont pretend to know the answer 100%. Most of what I have is theory based on observations of my own tank. But in my mind the difference, is that since the pellet reactors are so efficient, once active, they strip N03 and P04 from the water column before any bacteria in the display can use it to incorporate the carbon that is accumulating outside of the pellet reactor. You can wind up in a situation where carbon is now isolated in the display from the primary beneficial bacterial populations which can then be taken up by a scavenger like Dinos.

With either method, pellet or manual dosing, the potential outcome could be similar you just wind up with a different scavenger.

With either, the bacteria needs to be exported before an imbalance occurs otherwise the elements that make up the bacteria can be recycled by scavengers. Which I think is my point, in that the pellets are not always fool proof if you can't export the bacteria before it breaks down. Its just a different scavenger this time, with a different preferred ratio of C, N, and P.

With the manual methods vodka, sugar, vinegar, Vit c etc... you at least have some control on how much carbon is introduced at anyone time. It is much easier to adjust the dose on a daily basis where as with the pellet reactor it is mostly either on or off and driven by how much food you feed your fish. And if it's off or run too slow for too long then you risk it going anaerobic and losing your good guy bacterial populations.

Don't get me wrong, I think the pellet reactors are a very efficient and powerful filtration method. And probably preferable if you have a tank full of filter feeders. Again I posted just to bring to light a specific scenario where they can pose a problem so others can at least keep an eye out and avoid the same problems I saw.

 

[werdlone]

Alex T.

I would not use mb7 or biopellets. it's really a bogus front by these companies because they can't make money off you if you're giving it to Smirnoff . If you're going to dose vodka, just stay with that.

There's really no difference in results, or any other factual data that proves their product works better, or better in conjunction with just plain carbon dosing. And vodka is a lot cheaper in the long run.

I would love to see pictures of your tank Alex, since you seem to speak from vast experience. I have been vodka dosing and using microbacter for well over a year. Personal results are excellent as are for many of my reef colleagues. As a Surgeon, I use scientific and statistical analysis for all medical decision making. This hobby is not quite as stringent in its evidence based studies..but from personal, anecdotal experience, this system of vodka/microbacter works very well.

Vodka or vodka/ vinegar/sugar, as some use, is a carbon source or food source for bacteria. It takes a while of dosing to build up the amount of bacteria to see a noticeable difference..a few weeks generally. The microbacter helps maintain the higher than normal bacterial load and ensures that the beneficial bacteria is present. Excess bacteria is excellent sps food. there is a very noticeable difference after dosing microbacter..clearer water, higher skimmer output, and better coloration and polyp extension. The system is inexpensive when you only dose capfuls of microbacter weekly or drops daily.

As far as biopellets..there is always worry that if there is a clog or clumping of product you will produce Sulfur dioxide which is highly toxic to corals. Other than that, I don't see any difference in carbon source..seems easier then daily dosing. I'll stick with what has worked for me until more evidence suggests otherwise..vodka/microbacter

check out http://www.*********.com/forums/general-sps-discussion/41018-microbacter7-vodka-dosing-guide.html

for the link...add reef(number two)reef to the star area

 

[Wd40]

Hey guy i thanks for all the opinions. I know what youre saying about vodka and dosing everyday. But i enjoy watching and throwing crap in my tank everyday so i really dont mind..
As for the pellets i feel the same way about there not being as much concrete evidence and correct dose as vodka because vodka has been used for awhile now. And i constantly see sunnyx tank which he doses vodka and mb7.
Therefore, i think imma stick with vodka for now but down the road prob switch to bio pellets when more info comes out and i get tired of dosing..lol
Thank u guys for your help..

 

[commonstranger]

Ive been running EcoBac in one of the BRS dual chamber reactors thats been modified a little and like the results so far.

 

[platax88]

Good question platax88..

I wont pretend to know the answer 100%. Most of what I have is theory based on observations of my own tank. But in my mind the difference, is that since the pellet reactors are so efficient, once active, they strip N03 and P04 from the water column before any bacteria in the display can use it to incorporate the carbon that is accumulating outside of the pellet reactor. You can wind up in a situation where carbon is now isolated in the display from the primary beneficial bacterial populations which can then be taken up by a scavenger like Dinos.

With either method, pellet or manual dosing, the potential outcome could be similar you just wind up with a different scavenger.

With either, the bacteria needs to be exported before an imbalance occurs otherwise the elements that make up the bacteria can be recycled by scavengers. Which I think is my point, in that the pellets are not always fool proof if you can't export the bacteria before it breaks down. Its just a different scavenger this time, with a different preferred ratio of C, N, and P.

With the manual methods vodka, sugar, vinegar, Vit c etc... you at least have some control on how much carbon is introduced at anyone time. It is much easier to adjust the dose on a daily basis where as with the pellet reactor it is mostly either on or off and driven by how much food you feed your fish. And if it's off or run too slow for too long then you risk it going anaerobic and losing your good guy bacterial populations.

Don't get me wrong, I think the pellet reactors are a very efficient and powerful filtration method. And probably preferable if you have a tank full of filter feeders. Again I posted just to bring to light a specific scenario where they can pose a problem so others can at least keep an eye out and avoid the same problems I saw.

I see your point. Thanks for further explaining. Like mentioned earlier I just put my ecoBak reactor online so I will be documenting the pros/cons as they become evident to me.

 

[cindre2000]

I am using a 'white rice reactor' in my tank. Largly because I don't have $50 to spend on NP Biopellets. It seems to produce a fairly substatial amount of bacteria, but I did it mostly on a whim, so, I cannot compare or quantify the results. No negative results that I can see.

Also, there was a guy posting on 'beer dosing' where he would dump some beer in his tank every time he went by. :beer:

 

[Wd40]

hey commonstranger how many ML of eco bac are you running on the dual brs reactor?
Also what mods did you do to it and what pump are you running?

 

[beeker]

All i can say is the saturation of Vodka is because it's dosed daily

If you dose only 2-3 times a week like i do on my 200g system you don't get the negatives from Vodka

I only dose Calc/Alk/Mag daily

With Vodka being dosed only 7 drops(1 drop per 30g) 2 times a week sunday and wednesday this has netted great results

when i used to dose Vodka everyday i noticed a saturation point

I've used a few products in the past (Elo's Amino's, Tropic Marin A+ and K+ elements) and IMO they are bogus to a degree and netted no noticeable results by themselves

But from my own experience i notice Vodka does have a positive affect as long as it isn't overdosed or dosed to the point of saturation where Amino acids are then needed as well as an increase in food to keep the corals from starving

Pellets IMO aren't as stable as dosing the Vodka 2 times a week, this means if something bad happens quickly the ability to reverse it isn't possible which from what i've seen people still don't know the correct amount of pellet to coral/water volume/load to add

the pellets IMO still have some bugs to be worked out but from what i've seen they do look promising it just will be some more time before i decide to drop money on a reactor to run them to see if they are the new hype, lol

 

[thebanker]

From my experience, K++ dosing has brought out pinks in my SPS and is definitely NOT bogus.

FWIW on vodka/pellets... I was dosing vodka + MB7, but stopped because it was too hard to keep up on the daily regimen. I think it's a fine system though, just too much work for me on a daily basis. Beside the cost, Zeovit has the same need for daily maintenance, and it's just not my thing.

I use Instant Ocean Natural Nitrate Reducer now. It's biopellets that are miniaturized and suspended in a neutral fluid medium. Love it, it's cheap, works great, and I only need to dose 50% the reccomended dosage once a week.

 

[beeker]

i dosed both the A+ and K+ elements with no results, not sure if k++ is the same thing, lol

i can visually tell i get more of a gain color and growthwise from the Vodka dosing though, it has worked flawlessly on 3 of my systems so far and it makes chaning my routine a little off putting

But i'll keep an eye out on the pellets cause eventually they might become the norm

 

[thebanker]

You're the only person I've heard of dosing vodka on a twice-a-week basis. Post pics of your corals?

Also, David Bowie from Labyrinth called, and he wants his hair back.

 

[M007]

From what i've read with regard to pellet useage I think the biggest problem is that the pellet makers are not instructing the consumer very well. They should strongly recommending a slow ramp up approach vs. going full dose from day 1. Vodka users start slow and monitor their results which allows for the mentioned pull back and achieving their maintenance dose. Pellet bags give you the volume of pellets per gallon. Most who go to the max right out of the box run into all kinds of issues including cloudy water, cyno, etc. I/O nitrate reducer is interesting but after 6 weeks of use I really didn't notice much benefit. The dailing dosing thing is not for me either. I started with 25% of the maximum pellet volume recommended by Vertex and bumped to 50% after 30 days. At this point i'm not sure if I will bump again as I believe a tiny little bit of N03 and P04 are OK. I don't see much point in uber stripping the system and then going crazy adding in all kinds of other things to compensate. JM2C

 

[platax88]

From what i've read with regard to pellet useage I think the biggest problem is that the pellet makers are not instructing the consumer very well. They should strongly recommending a slow ramp up approach vs. going full dose from day 1. Vodka users start slow and monitor their results which allows for the mentioned pull back and achieving their maintenance dose. Pellet bags give you the volume of pellets per gallon. Most who go to the max right out of the box run into all kinds of issues including cloudy water, cyno, etc. I/O nitrate reducer is interesting but after 6 weeks of use I really didn't notice much benefit. The dailing dosing thing is not for me either. I started with 25% of the maximum pellet volume recommended by Vertex and bumped to 50% after 30 days. At this point i'm not sure if I will bump again as I believe a tiny little bit of N03 and P04 are OK. I don't see much point in uber stripping the system and then going crazy adding in all kinds of other things to compensate. JM2C

+1 I started with half dose of EcoBack pellets and will monitor water chem as I continue to add more gradually. I am also not shooting for ultra low nutrient levels. My target is 1-3ppm of NO3 and .03 of PH4.

No to get off topic, but I see that you have a multicolor and flame angel in your sps tank. How have they done for you? I added a multicolor and a pair of flames a few weeks back and they have been well behaved so far.

 

[M007]

Both angels are well behaved. They pick here and there but nothing sustained unlike a gold flake angel that started out cute and nice but ended up being a real polyp picker. I've had the flame for 4 years now and the multi for 1. Good you added them all at the same time. My flame makes sure he's recognised as King of the Reef.

 

[JasonD]

I've been dosing mb7 and using ecobak pellets it's reduced my nitrates from 5 to .2 and po4 from .20 to .05. For me at least pellets and mb7 work.

Jason

 

[Acrotrdco]

Sedor, I'm not saying that biopellets "don't" work. I'm quite sure that they do. But, to say that MB7 and biopellets are a superior carbon source to vodka or vinegar should be perceived by hobbyists with a skeptical eye.

Carbon dosing is already a proven method that doesn't even cost pennies per day. In the chemistry forum, Randy has illustrated this analogy with using other household items to come up with alkalinity, calcium and magnesium supplements at the fraction of the cost for what the aquarium trade charges for their supplements. From a cost perspective, it's an elementary decision. The rest in my opinion is marketing hype. As a former Madison Avenue ad agency executive I can assure you that step 1 in validating a product is to create a need or perception of need, and then exploiting it through targeted messaging. They've done that in spades.

If traveling for work is the norm for someone, and daily dosing is impossible, I can see the need for moving on to pellets. However, even some people who've reached their maintenance dose don't do it every day. There are reports of some people keeping their vodka maintenance dose to twice per week. At that level of "involvement", it's pretty doable for most hobbyists unless they are working away from home for weeks at a time. And if you are working away from home for weeks at a time, are you really enjoying the fruits of your labors in the hobby anyway?

And regarding your comments about the pellets decreasing PO4 levels too, carbon dosing does the exact same thing...so I don't know why you're claiming this as an advantage of biopellets over vodka/vinegar. They achieve the exact same result...lowering of PO4 and NO3 by introduction of a controlled carbon dosed source.

You are more than welcome to your opinion that biopellets are superior to vodka, but many who've dosed vodka have no problems with PO4, NO3 or cyano issues, with more money left in their pockets for corals and less reactors/pumps to run.

Most of the biopellets are basically PHA (Polyhydroxyalkanoates) - if you can find cheap sources (and in 100% pure form without contaminates), then you can use those instead of buying the brand name ones.

But you'll most likely find out that PHA is expensive even if you source them from the manufacturer directly, and you don't know if they're pure or contains contaminates.

For myself, I've used NPBP for over a year and the 400 mL of pellets I've used is still there in my pellet reactor (I started with 300mL 1 year ago, then added 100mL 6 months later).

Now running 1 full year, I look at my pellets reactor every couple of days and most of the pellets are still there, so I don't think I'll need to add any additional pellets for another few months.

At this rate, I think the $99 bag of 1000mL I bought (I think they're a lot cheaper now too? The cheapest one is like $50 per 1000mL? Correct me if I'm wrong) would easily last me 2-3 years, this would be about the same, if not cheaper, than dosing vodka, especially if you choose to go with a brand name that sells at a much lower price than NPBP.