Volcano club

[hahnmeister]

I partly agree with you Energy, too much air in the neck section can work against you, yes. To put 6000+lph of air into a Volcano would also warrant about a 12" diameter neck. I think there is something else in action here compared to the usual 'bubbles rising through the water' type of skimming action. Its more like a beckett in how it runs... turning more of the skimmer into foam head where the water is instead draining through the upward motion of a foam head that it cant escape... more like 'water through air', and those notions of 'air/water ratio' and density/bouyancy no longer apply (as you have noted, pushing a lid off your collection cup). You are simply stacking bubbles at a faster rate than the water can drain from them and take the impurities with

Have I seen what, an ATB, an ATI, or a BK in person? Sure have. Seen the Volcanoes too. Unless the 'canoes are force fed, the Euro high-efficiency skimmers are pure white like PVC in the body. If your buddy's BK doesnt look like this, then there is something wrong with it. Most BKs run about 20-23 lph/in2 in the body. The Volcanoes are about 13-14 (@ 3400-3600lph/18" diameter). The only place I see bubble density like this on a Volcano is in the neck (unless force fed):

Im sure you have great things to say about yours... its force fed.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12940858#post12940858 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
Do you mean like this Jon? This is an old shot of the skimmer and modifications have been made to the design already. But as you can see this will have two dart and will be pulling 100+ scfh each and hold about 100gallons. I don't think there will be any problem with too much air with this one.

So, how did those volutes turn out? Did you end up getting custom/CNC-ed volutes or anything? A 140-160 wattRMS motor should have no problem making 6000lph of air as a needlewheel, esp not an external motor (higher efficiency) like that.

 

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12941801#post12941801 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Energy
I totally disagree with this. Ideally you want a calm but very thick bubble density that gently rises to the top of the skimmer. I have added a much larger air pump on the Volcano just to test it out and see what it would do. The needlewheel handled the extra air just fine but at the top of the skimmer it created havoc and production decreased.

It's not volcano but you can see with 100SCFH on 8" skimmer body how it's build the foam (same pump on 50SCHF can't do it , i test it)





here it's other test..... i can't call it , turbulence it's "tornado" in the skimmer body and you can see the foam head :




i test a lot of option air vs water and this is what i find out.... maybe i am wrong but the result show different....

more then that , bubble diffuser as all think it's great.... i think they decrease the skimming performance..... again it's not argument.... this is my opinion on test that i am doing and comparing the result , same as feeding the skimmer body IMO as much as i feed more water i getting better skimming result and i said that because all the test that i am doing and compering not because i think so.....

maybe in your case it's different but this is my experience

 

[Energy]

hanhmeister- wasn't the one you looked at force fed? Most of them are as a venturi option just doesn't pull enough air on the bigger skimmers. I think some of the smaller ones aren't force fed though.

Mavgi- Looks good. In my experience that "Tornado" at the top disrupts the smaller bubbles. Yes it seems like it's pushing a ton up and through but ideally you want it to rise and fall into the collection cup gently. The turbulent bubbes don't collect as many proteins so although you are pushing more into the cup often times it hasn't really collected anything worthwile. Because of this the results can appear conflicting. More bubbles go into the cup but the bubbles aren't holding as many proteins. What you collect isn't dirty.

 

[JRaquatics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12942191#post12942191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
So, how did those volutes turn out? Did you end up getting custom/CNC-ed volutes or anything? A 140-160 wattRMS motor should have no problem making 6000lph of air as a needlewheel, esp not an external motor (higher efficiency) like that.

As far as I know everything on the pump will be Reeflo stock except the Needle wheel. I was told it would cost too much to get new larger volutes made for the darts and would make the skimmers not profitable. But because the Bubble plate is less restrictive the pump is able to pull more air than what we have seen with the Reeflo 250. There has been lots of test with different wheels (mesh and NW) and found that by changing the venturi and the wheel they were able to get more air (and without being force fed with an air pump). I think the Larger reeflo line will be something to look out for. They have been working on these for quite a while and are tweaking every last detail. I am waiting for a newer pic since the one posted is more than 3 months old and a lot of changes have been made.

 

[spazz]

hahnmeister,
I really don’t know why it is that you always feel the need to attack me here on reef central. You made a comment here on this thread and I pointed out that there was a false statement in there and now you go off in a different direction. Let’s go back to your original statement and then your follow up comment. You’re trying to make me sound like I don’t know what I’m talking about, or doing.
So, originally you said.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12938575#post12938575 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Another option would be to use the volute from a hammerhead on the dart motor. I know someone who is trying to make this mod, and it should be promising... using the larger volute and inlet/outlet will boost the air intake, but not cost you tons of more wattage... it should help keep the dart motor running closer to spec as well.

So lets get back to this. In your reply/comment you said.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12940541#post12940541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
As for swapping volutes, a 1.5" inlet/outlet is enough to go above what a dart does, but the pump needs more pressure handling

They both have 1.5” outlets. So how can the votive on the hammerhead flow more through its 1.5” outlet than the dart can through its 1.5” outlet? Even if you milled out the hammerhead as much as possible it is still not bigger than the dart votive is. There the same size 1.5” output.
Now you also said.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12940541#post12940541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
The hammerhead volute seems to have a larger in internal volume, which is perhaps the single easiest way to increase a pump's air handling capacity without needing a proportional increase in air. Its not so much the inlet/outlet, but the volume of the impeller well. The impeller from the hammerhead isnt needed though... the impeller from the dart can stay.

From what I can gather here you want to use the dart motor, the dart needle wheel and the hammerhead wet end to make a needle wheel pump. The results would be the same or worse if you could even get the parts together after all that jerry rigging together of those components. I honestly don’t know the internal volume of those 2 housings but I might find out for curiosity sake. In my mind though, the deeper housing on the dart is “more likely” to flow the air to water mixture better than the hammerhead would. Also the output on the hammerhead is a lot more restricted at the point where the main housing meets the output of the votive. It can’t be milled out any bigger because the housings design won’t allow you to remove that much material. The dart housing on the other hand is a lot better housing to be removing excess material from.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12940541#post12940541 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

Im not sure what the final result/solution for the dart 'enlarged volute' was... I think there was also mention of just getting a custom volute milled for the Dart with 2x the volume... perhaps the bolt pattern or other things couldnt be accomidated.

I have had great results with enlarging dart housings. It flows a lot better than a standard dart housing because it opens up the output to its maximum possible size with out ruining the housing itself. You cant get 2 times the volume though. Its just not possible. There is not enough material that you can remove with out making the housing paper thin. The same goes for the hammerhead housing. You can’t remove enough material from the housing to make it “flow” better then the dart. It’s just not possible.

 

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12943489#post12943489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Energy

Mavgi- Looks good. In my experience that "Tornado" at the top disrupts the smaller bubbles. Yes it seems like it's pushing a ton up and through but ideally you want it to rise and fall into the collection cup gently. The turbulent bubbes don't collect as many proteins so although you are pushing more into the cup often times it hasn't really collected anything worthwile. Because of this the results can appear conflicting. More bubbles go into the cup but the bubbles aren't holding as many proteins. What you collect isn't dirty.

I am testing all the time different way of skimming i get good result on any way , and realy nusty

i also working right now on large con skimmer and i am sure more air will create better skimming .

as far as the Volcano skimmers IMO they are great and i am always recommend them for big system . IMO if i can push all the drain flow to the skimmer it's the best way to go with ,also they keep high water volume then any standard skimmer .... i am pretty sure Spazz know what he doing no doubt about it .

 

[hahnmeister]

Energy, 2 of the ones I have seen are not force fed, they are the 4' tall models. Another I saw was a taller (6'?) force fed one. The results were very different. The non-force fed ones remind me more of a glorified ASM than a Bubbleking. Im starting to think that in order to get the best results from a Volcano, they need to be force fed.

Anyways, not attacking you Spazz. Im sorry that my assumption about the Hammerhead might be wrong... I wasnt clear in that respect. Just like you have had better results with enlarged dart housings, if you went even larger, you would be getting even better results with the air:water ratio and power handling of the motor... keeping the same dart motor, the same impeller, but making an enlarged volute (in diameter mostly, but if the depth is less than 1.5", then that as well).

 

[tom obrecht]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12941211#post12941211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wizsmaster
Did you ever get the venturi changed out? is it working better for you now?
Were you able to get the bubble production up? Do you have an air meter to see a rough estimate of how much you're pulling?

--marco

I' installed the new venturi and although I think it is better it still is not as dense as I thought it would be. I have not taken any air measurements for I don't have the tools to do so. Spazz has been right on top of the issue and is determined to get this issue corrected so I feel it is a temp thing to be corrected. I'm still curious however if it would be possible to force feed a small pump to get a really dense air column in the body like Energy's pics? I know Spazz says it's not necessary but I'm curious what would happen.

 

[wizsmaster]

I talked to scott tonight ... we talked about this issue. I believe he will have you fixed up soon.

 

[Energy]

All right Hahnmeister- you peaked my curiousity so I walked all the way across the street to see scott's smallest skimmer the 1240 in action. It is not force fed so it's similar to the others you have seen. I still don't see your point.

hahnmeister Energy, 2 of the ones I have seen are not force fed, they are the 4' tall models. Another I saw was a taller (6'?) force fed one. The results were very different. The non-force fed ones remind me more of a glorified ASM than a Bubbleking. Im starting to think that in order to get the best results from a Volcano, they need to be force fed.

This statement is way off-plain and simple. The bubble density was similar to my friends BK which cost twice as much. Furthermore not to be rude but this thread is called the Volcano Club Thread- not the volcano bashers thread. My mother taught me if you don't have anything nice to say-well you get my point.

Also the reeflo orca is very similar in design- the main difference is in the needlewheel and the quality of the acrylic. People seem to like the bubble density in those skimmers and Scott's needlewheel is actually an improvement over the stock one in the reeflo. It would be much easier for him to use their needlewheel then handcraft one just to gain some performance but he does.

He also does this for a living. I'm sure he doesn't come to your work and critique you so have the same consideration. He also does this 12 hours a day so he may be more qualified than both of us put together to handcraft the best design.

 

[Rwinfrey]

ok ok everyone to there corners.
WE meaning even HAN know Scott and his skimmers are top notch so cool it and lets all drool over Scotts big gigantic skimmers.I only wish he would make some luguna based smaller skimmer's ( I am begging you man) like you know for somthing like my 150 gallon and at 22cents a killowatt LOW WATTS.

 

[wizsmaster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947679#post12947679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Energy
All right Hahnmeister- you peaked my curiousity so I walked all the way across the street to see scott's smallest skimmer the 1240 in action. It is not force fed so it's similar to the others you have seen. ....... The bubble density was similar to my friends BK which cost twice as much. .....

Any chance you could post up a picture of the bubble density of the 1240 ? I'd be interested to see, as I had one as well.
Unless you are comparing it to a bubble king that is not working right - I'd beg to differ.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947679#post12947679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Energy
......
Also the reeflo orca is very similar in design- the main difference is in the needlewheel and the quality of the acrylic. People seem to like the bubble density in those skimmers and Scott's needlewheel is actually an improvement over the stock one in the reeflo. It would be much easier for him to use their needlewheel then handcraft one just to gain some performance but he does.....

On the 1240 he uses the standard sequence NW. On the first one he sent me, it was a custom wheel if I'm not mistaken, but the replacement, and current design ships with the reeflo/sequence NW.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947679#post12947679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Energy
....
He also does this for a living. ...... He also does this 12 hours a day so he may be more qualified than both of us put together to handcraft the best design.

I think it's more like 16 hours a day ... lol. every time i talk to him, no matter if 9AM, or 11PM .. he's at the shop.

 

[tom obrecht]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947500#post12947500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wizsmaster
I talked to scott tonight ... we talked about this issue. I believe he will have you fixed up soon.

I agree! He has been in contact with me today and has a couple suggestions and is very much as interested as I am to get things figured out.

 

[martinphillip03]

I second that motion.

Marty

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947778#post12947778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rwinfrey
Scotts big gigantic skimmers.I only wish he would make some luguna based smaller skimmer's ( I am begging you man) like you know for somthing like my 150 gallon and at 22cents a killowatt LOW WATTS.

 

[hahnmeister]

1240 is a 12" body, so I would expect a higher bubble density of course. Im talking about the 18" bodies though.

If you look into other skimmer threads for ASM, Barr, Octopus, BK, etc... you will see both praise, as well as constructive criticism and suggestions for improvements. If blind 'cult of personality' is what you think Volcano owners should subscribe to otherwise... then I will not say a word. Spazz has a product... Im not attacking him or anything on a personal level. Im sure he works hard, and he does some very nice fabrication. I dont think that 'he doesnt come to your work and be critical of your job' is a valid argument though. To say that would mean that I cant be critical of a automobile make because of the workers who made it... come on!!! If this was a sponsor thread, that would be one thing, but this is a forum, a club thread, and a free country.

In the sfiligoi/Aquarium Obsessed forums, they posted pics of their up & coming stealth T5 units which started out as passive cooled. There were some critical remarks made, and as a consequence, the design was improved with fans. If you feel this sort of communication between makers and potential clients is bad... well... I suppose the forums here at RC are sorta pointless.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947679#post12947679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Energy
All right Hahnmeister- you peaked my curiousity so I walked all the way across the street to see scott's smallest skimmer the 1240 in action. It is not force fed so it's similar to the others you have seen. I still don't see your point.



This statement is way off-plain and simple. The bubble density was similar to my friends BK which cost twice as much. Furthermore not to be rude but this thread is called the Volcano Club Thread- not the volcano bashers thread. My mother taught me if you don't have anything nice to say-well you get my point.

Also the reeflo orca is very similar in design- the main difference is in the needlewheel and the quality of the acrylic. People seem to like the bubble density in those skimmers and Scott's needlewheel is actually an improvement over the stock one in the reeflo. It would be much easier for him to use their needlewheel then handcraft one just to gain some performance but he does.

He also does this for a living. I'm sure he doesn't come to your work and critique you so have the same consideration. He also does this 12 hours a day so he may be more qualified than both of us put together to handcraft the best design.

 

[Energy]

No-you guys are totally right. Critiscm and the ability to make it is what seperates us from other less fortunate areas of the world. It is what also helps us to improve instead of remain status qou.
I had a stressful day at work and should have relaxed a little before I jumped on the boards. Kind of like kickin a dog that doesn't deserve it.

Anyway, I wonder if turbo charging(adding a little more air) to the Volcano 1240 would make a difference? I should bring a pump over to my neighbors and try it out.

I thought spazz was still making the needlewheels. I think he is for the larger units. If he isn't then the performance should be exactly like the reeflo orca.

 

[hahnmeister]

1240 might be a different story all together... perhaps I should clarify and say that my comments are with regards to only the non-force fed Volcanoes of 18" diameter.

 

[wizsmaster]

Here is my take on the 1240 ... i'm no scientist, I don't build or design these things for a living, but I have had a few skimmers in the last couple of years ... and gotten to play with, and get my hands on quiet a few.


I think the problem is the venturi ! End of story. Once he gets the venturi proper on the 1240's, or on ANY of the non airpump driven versions ... the remaining tweaks may only give 10-20% performance increase.

On the large units, the force fed ones - the venturi design is not as critical. For what anyone cares, he could take a 2" pipe, and stick a 1/2" air pipe in, cut at a 45* angle & be done. Air is going to get introduced by means of air pump.

On the smaller ones however, he's relying on the venturi to do the work, and do it well.
My first 12" Beta skimmer had basically just that. Pretty much what he used to do on the 18"/24" models. DID NOT WORK WELL.

Scott was great about it - he made quiet a few changes, and sent me an entire new body - there were also some issues with the acrylic crazing. He called me asking me if he could redo the original one even before shipping it. I had unfortunately already sold my old skimmer at that point, and was waiting for the volcano to hand the reeflo over to it's new owner.

The second one had a 1 1/2" or 2" intake pipe, with a 1/2" 45* angle cut air pipe for a venturi. worked better due to some design changes, but not that great.

The scott started working on the venturi, made it smaller. Tapered it down to about 1 1/4" i'd guess, w/out having ever taken a measure. This worked MUCH better. NOW we started to pull some air.

On these smaller skimmers, where there is not enough head to require an airpump, the venturi needs to be carefully designed & optimized.

For instance, the reeflo 250 venturi is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3/4" ..... and I believe scott said he will work on building one, and giving that a shot.




As far as the needle wheel is concerned, scott & I both agreed to get the bubble density, and air draw comparable and acceptable, before we try to change the needle wheel around - but it was on the horizon.

Scott has been great through all of this, and I think he is not very far off from making the 12" skimmer rock as much as the 24" models such as energy's.

Nathan, the new owner of my 1240 stopped by on thursday to checkout the volcano, and show me the reeflo 250 PRO, as I've never seen one in person - and I couldn't resist temptation. It's a new toy.

 

[ksed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947254#post12947254 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tom obrecht
I' installed the new venturi and although I think it is better it still is not as dense as I thought it would be. I have not taken any air measurements for I don't have the tools to do so. Spazz has been right on top of the issue and is determined to get this issue corrected so I feel it is a temp thing to be corrected. I'm still curious however if it would be possible to force feed a small pump to get a really dense air column in the body like Energy's pics? I know Spazz says it's not necessary but I'm curious what would happen.

I'm confussed, is it a venturi with an injector or NW.
Thanks