Wavebox on 310 gallon Acrylic Tank (1" acrylic)

[GatorCSM]

Roger,

I have been cautioned about using a wavebox on my acrylic tank by a local shop because they believe the tank was fabricated not using a 2 part weldon, and was instead only using a single part solvent. The store owner was concerned about the fact that the tank seams might give out under the pressures.

Is this a problem? The stand is very sturdy, so that part I'm not concerned about. The tank is built out of 1" acrylic (the actual thickness is a true 1" according to my ruler). The tank is 310 gallons, 96"x34"26" (26" deep, top to bottom). All measurements are outside dimensions.

Thank you and best regards,
Chris

 

[Aquadepot]

Hi Chris,

I could be wrong here as acrylic is not common in Australia.

The Wavebox will shorten the life of all aquariums this stated.
In my opinion if the aquarium is guaranteed to hold water for an exceptable time frame when filled with water, will be fine with a wavebox. You mentioned the stand is sound so no movement would occur from the motion I don't see a problem.

Regards
Graeme

 

[GatorCSM]

I was under the impression that the shortening of life was due to the silicon seams/bonds on glass tanks? Do you know if that's not the case?

The concern I heard on the acrylic one, was that the seams just not being capable (potentially) of holding it, due to the stress, and it being glued with 1 part instead of 2 part weld-on.

 

[Jacob D]

Hey Gator, if there is even a hint of uncertainty do you really want to gamble with 300+ gallons of water? I had a friend with a 210 that the front came unglued on (tank was fabricated with the wrong silicone) and it caused huge amounts of water damage to his home. This had nothing to do with water movement, just sharing a story of when things go wrong with big tanks...

 

[GatorCSM]

Personally, I don't have uncertainty based on my own experience or opinion. Atleast, no one has given me a reason to be uncertain, yet.

I've heard very little of acrylic tanks failing from straight forward stress (especially those using quality acrylic and nice looking joints, as in no bubbles, nice smooth join). Most failures are either poorly made tanks, too thin of acrylic, head damage, heat/cold shock, or a combination of those. You very rarely hear of, "i made a wave in my tank and it bust open the side of it".

Even in your example, the tank was made 'wrong' and was glass. The idea with acrylic tanks is that they are chemically bonded, so "technically", they are as good as one piece (in a perfect world).. However, people have had issues with seems coming apart (I've only found one thread, and it was from too thin of acrylic and potentially high heat).

The only person who has had any concern (so far) is a person who sells only tanks made with 2 part adhesive instead of the single part solvent.

If I *personally* felt uncertain, it would be a moot point.

But, since I feel safe with it (based on my own hypothesized opinion), I'd like to get some feedback from those who have seen this product used a lot and might have heard of these problems and what the conditions are that caused them.

Thanks.

 

[Jacob D]

Understood, but the fact that you posted concerns about the the possibility of unusual (imo) construction of your tanks seems has to mean there is some uncertainty, right? If you were certain it would work then you'd be playing with your wavebox right now, not talking to mothra about hypothetical situations

The point I was making with my friends tank is just that it was a disaster when it broke. It's not something I would want ever want to deal with. I've never heard of a tank actually coming apart because of a wavebox.

 

[GatorCSM]

From what I can find, this is the normal way to build an acrylic tank in the industry.. I can't find many people who use the 2 part. This is why I am posting.

Frankly, I posted here to get data from people experienced with the wavebox, not hypothetical data (unless it's backed up with a great knowledge of tank construction and the wavebox effect), as I can hypothesize all i want, and so can you, but my hopes are that someone from Tunze can back up one of the ideas, not to get 'opinion' from someone not intimately familiar with the product, but thank you very much for you input.

If you were certain it would work then you'd be playing with your wavebox right now, not talking to mothra about hypothetical situations

I will tell you that I was certain enough that I purchased a wavebox yesterday and have it operating in my tank... I do know I feel more comfortable with this setup than operating it in a glass tank. I feel better about acrylic seems than I do about silicon joints.. That's not backed up with anything, but it seems you hear about more glass/silicone problems than acrylic tanks.

My goal with this post was not to have discussion of my certainty, or other peoples glass tanks, as it has been documented that waveboxes lower the life of silicone on glass tanks (or something to that effect).

At this point I want reassurance that it isn't common place to have problems with the solvent built tanks and waveboxes.

I'm also not 100% certain that my tank was built with solvent. That's a 'guess' by the person who wanted to sell me a 2-part epoxy tank.. He said most tanks are built that way, so it likely was.

Thanks again.

 

[Jacob D]

decisive action, way to go :thumbsup:


You might try contacting someone like Envision acrylics or another well known acrylic tank builder, or even post in the DIY forum here on RC. Good luck.

 

[GatorCSM]

Most tank manufacturers don't necessarily have the data regarding what might have caused tank failure (nor would the person reporting it necessarily say: "I put a wave machine in my tank so I could put X times the average pressure against the walls"...

My hopes are still that someone that someone else from Tunze familiar with the use of the wave box on acrylic tanks might be able to lend some insight onto any good chances of problems with this config. As I mentioned, not much yielded by a search for "separating acrylic seams" or the such...

 

[ichthyman]

Data sheets from two solvents.

IPS Weld-On #3

IPS Weld-On #4

Data sheet from a 2 part Cement.

IPS Weld-On #40

Cyro Industries, probably the most common sheet used in acrylic aquariums, states "Cemented joints must withstand the effects of the continuous hydraulic pressure and the high level of water absorption for many years. Two-part polymerizable cements are recommended for this to meet this requirement. For proper cementing techniques Click Here. Solvent cements are NOT recommended." Taken from their Aquarium Thickness Calculator found here.

 

[GatorCSM]

This is fabulous information, however, it doesn't necessarily provide experience or historical data for those who might wish to use a wave box and whose tank is not using 2 - part, which seems to be an overwhelming number of the manufacturers that I've contacted.

It is definitely great to know, 'solvent' based adhesive isn't the best way (necessarly), although it seems to be what most people have, however, do we know that it's a problem? I can't find any data to support that.

Do you happen to have data for the relative strength of a Silicon join by comparison? Where does it fall?

Perhaps there is no real answer here, given many people probably have no clue if they have a solvent or 2 part adhered tank.

Thanks.

 

[Acrylics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10887755#post10887755 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GatorCSM
Most tank manufacturers don't necessarily have the data regarding what might have caused tank failure

Perhaps not *necessarily*, but most experienced tank builders (esp w/ acrylic) can look at a failed tank and have a pretty good idea what caused the failure or at least what contributed greatly to it.

For folks using Waveboxes on acrylic tanks, I usually recommend upgrading by one thickness to account for the constant load changes.

The idea Cyro or anyone else puts out regarding solvent vs polymerizeable cements is utter nonsense as we don't put near the force on joints that it takes to bust a seam (read: *very* difficult if the tank is engineered well). Cyro puts that out for other reasons which I won't go into here.

I've used both techniques (solvent and cast joints) and have seen no noticeable difference in strength in real world situations in the ~20 yrs building tanks for public aquariums and individuals as well.

Good seams should not fail, period. Not due to water changes and not due to the Wavebox. My (educated) guess is that 95-98% of all professionally made tanks that do fail; start to fail with a crack originating in a corner of the top bracing often compounded by heat from HID lighting & not the joint if made with quality material and done well.

While it is true that not enough data exists to judge the effects of the Wavebox on tanks over time, I wouldn't think it could possibly be more problematic than say surge systems.

Gator,
In your case of a 96 x 34 x 26"H tank using 1" material; it's a non-concern IMO if the material is good quality and the seams are good as the tank is built for it provided the bracing is adequate.

HTH,
James

 

[GatorCSM]

Your statement regarding the solvent vs cement was one of the things I was really interested in.. Is the force necessary to break the solvent bond already outside of even our farthest fetched operating regions..

Thanks Acrylics for your take on it

 

[Acrylics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10893316#post10893316 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GatorCSM
Your statement regarding the solvent vs cement was one of the things I was really interested in.. Is the force necessary to break the solvent bond already outside of even our farthest fetched operating regions..

*Quite* a bit further, exponentially so, again - provided the seam was well done with good quality material.

HTH,
James

 

[GatorCSM]

Other than 'bubble free'.. are there any indications of a good or bad seam or materials?

 

[Acrylics]

If the masking paper is still on the material, it should be either Spartech Polycast, Cyro Acrylite GP, or Plexi-Glas G. All other materials are unacceptable for display aquaria IMO. There are a coupla others such as Reynolds Polymers and Mitsubishi/Nippura which are quite good but these are *very* rare in home aquaria. If no paper on the material, no real way of knowing. Faith is placed on your builder or have them specify exactly what material they will be using. If you know the material is good, and the joint looks clean, you can generally rest well. It's fairly difficult to get even close to bubble free joints in bad material using solvent, the chemical make-up of the material doesn't generally allow for it. OTOH, perfect looking cast joints can be made in bad material and these joints can be hit/miss. I've seen them last for years and I've seen them fall apart on first fill. This is one of the great problems with polymerizeable cements giving a false sense of security IMO.

As for bubbles, a couple here and there is a non-issue. *Lots* of bubbles *can* be problematic but not *necessarily* so, but if this is the case - I'd hope that common sense would take over and folks wouldn't place a Wavebox in action under such circumstances.

HTH,
James

 

[GatorCSM]

They use Cyro Acrylite GP (had a cover that hadn't had the paper removed yet).

The guy I talked to was the designer and he didn't know the number of the weld-on they used, but was going to call me back. He said he is fairly certain it's a 2-part.

 

[Acrylics]

If it was a 2-part, it would be either WO 40 or 42. There are a coupla others but not widely used. Either way, IMO it's insignificant and something I don't think tank owners should worry about, but JMO

I thought I should qualify a statement I made above though I"m not sure it matters much:
"It's fairly difficult to get even close to bubble free joints in bad material using solvent, the chemical make-up of the material doesn't generally allow for it".
This was referring to cell cast acrylics, extruded and continuous cast have different chemical properties than cell cast and are not recommended for use in aquaria but are easy to get good looking joints with.

James