Well that's interesting... QT issues

[ACBlinky]

I've got a QT full of fish going through copper treatment with Cupramine. I followed the directions on the bottle to reach 0.5ppm, and I'm testing Cu levels daily. I'm getting confusing results with the API kit, so I've ordered a Salifert test kit which should arrive tomorrow.

I have been doing frequent water changes, roughly every 48h, adding Cupramine to the new water to keep the levels steady...

And here's the weird thing: yesterday I vacuumed the gravel (it's inert FW gravel, not SW sand) on the bottom of the tank and found PODS cruising around the bottom of the bucket. Weeks ago I added 3 little pieces of LR rubble to the tank to seed the QT with bacteria, which must be what brought the pods in BUT... If the fish have been in copper this whole time, how on earth are pods surviving and breeding?

I assume that if pods are somehow able to live in the tank, the copper treatment is completely ineffective. Cupramine isn't supposed to break down, and even on the API test kit copper levels are registering, but if there's copper in the tank how can any invert be alive?

 

[ACBlinky]

Shameless bump, just in case anyone on the forum this evening might have some ideas

 

[spieszak]

The gravel isn't rock? I mean, where do you get inert gravel? I'm not questioning you, but as a general rule thought most organic things had the capacity to absorb copper, hence the basically "plastic only" rule for QT's.

 

[Palting]

That is indeed interesting. Copper is supposed to kill all invertebrates, including the Ich. When I did hyposalinity, I made the mistake of leaving a 1" mature substrate in the tank, and got one heck of a nitrate spike before I found a lot of dead pods and worms in the substrate and filters. I'd wait for the salifert test to make sure you have the right Cu levels.

 

[ACBlinky]

The gravel isn't rock? I mean, where do you get inert gravel? I'm not questioning you, but as a general rule thought most organic things had the capacity to absorb copper, hence the basically "plastic only" rule for QT's.

The gravel is plastic-coated, the stuff you can get in any colour of the rainbow. It can't absorb things the same way porous, calcareous sand can, that's what I meant. Inert as in doesn't absorb or release anything appreciable. It's also fairly large-grained, not very 'pod-friendly'

The Salifert test should come today or tomorrow (forgot I ordered it on a Friday, mail doesn't deliver on the weekend!) I'm very curious to see what the levels are.

I did a water change yesterday and thoroughly vacuumed the gravel. Lots of poop, detritus, but not a single pod did I find. I didn't find any bodies either, so it's possible that if they're still in the tank they either moved away from the hose or are hiding in rocks/decorations.

If I do measurements with the new test kit and find copper at or above 0.5ppm, I'll be thoroughly confused. The fish show no signs of stress, which I assume they would if they were infested with ich or if Cu levels were too high, but not being able to accurately determine the level of copper is making me nervous!

 

[Dr. Reef]

cupramine is a very weak and safe form of copper it does not hurt the biofilter not kills beneficial bacteria (if established). i have a feeling with such fast water changes (within 48hrs) ur copper levels are not high enough to bother inverts yet. API is not a very good test kit for copper. salifert will be good. if its under 0.25ppm its very much ineffective.

 

[spieszak]

The gravel is plastic-coated, the stuff you can get in any colour of the rainbow. It can't absorb things the same way porous, calcareous sand can, that's what I meant. Inert as in doesn't absorb or release anything appreciable. It's also fairly large-grained, not very 'pod-friendly'

Ah, ok. I've never been a 'colored gravel' person.. only ever used the natural stuff... I wasn't aware it was actually plastic coated.

 

[ACBlinky]

cupramine is a very weak and safe form of copper it does not hurt the biofilter not kills beneficial bacteria (if established). i have a feeling with such fast water changes (within 48hrs) ur copper levels are not high enough to bother inverts yet. API is not a very good test kit for copper. salifert will be good. if its under 0.25ppm its very much ineffective.

I should clarify, I'm adding the appropriate amount of Cupramine to the replacement water (following bottle directions for 0.5ppm); I'm matching SG, temperature, etc.; water changes are just to keep ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate levels at a minimum because the tank is overstocked (150g worth of fish in a ~30g space) and the biological filtration material came out of the display but I'm sure the bacterial colony is still growing and getting established and settled due to recent additions.

Hubby should be going to the post office tonight to get the new kit... I'll let you guys know what it says!

 

[ACBlinky]

Got the Salifert test kit last night, and lo and behold, Cu was at about 0.35ppm, despite a 50% water change the night before, where the Cupramine was added just minutes before going in the tank, to a level of 0.5ppm. Added more Cupramine, following the bottle directions, and this morning it's testing at 0.6ppm.

So the rocks etc. have been absorbing a significant quantity of copper! I was getting unreliable results from the API test kit, or thought I was, but it appears that when it was reading low the Cu levels really were taking a nose-dive.

I was reading a thread recently where someone mentioned that few of us want to test Cu levels twice daily on a QT, and while it's true that it's a pain, I'm absolutely going to be testing morning and night for the next little while until I feel secure about the levels, at which point I'll start testing every couple of days.

TLDR; Cu was only at 0.35ppm. Lesson learned, when using Cupramine, use a Salifert Cu test kit, API isn't necessarily reliable/easy to read. Also, things in the QT (rocks, gravel, decorations) really can absorb a LOT of copper!

Oh, and it appears pods can survive 0.25-0.35ppm copper. Tough little bugs!