What am i looking at here?

[JoeVandal49]

This Royal Gramma was looking 100% healthy yesterday, none of these symptoms were showing( i watch my tank religiously when im home).

Today it looks like this. Looks like some white spots, which im assuming is ich.

It also has what appears to be a light haze/film on its underbelly, running very slightly up its side.

Another thing that is confusing, is it appears to have a few loose scales hanging on one side.

I have not seen it rubbing, it is eating like a pig, and it is very active.

I know the photos are poor, i apologize, they were the best i could do.

Can anyone ID what is going on here?

I will be setting up a hospital tank tomorrow in preparation of treating my fish.

I have a tailspot blenny, Clown Goby, Three stripe Damsel, and this royal Gramma. None of the other fish are showing signs of disease/parasites.

I will not have the ability to do tank transfer, or separate the fish, so all would need to be treated in the same hospital tank. I am prepared to leave my tank fallow for however long is necessary, and do whatever is best for the health of my fish and tank.

Please advise RC. It would be greatly appreciated!

Here you can see a couple loose scales on side, a couple spots on fins, and the slight haze on the side. The have is more hazy in person. Best i can describe it is a filmy haze.

Here you can slightly see the haze on side and belly, but it brown in this picture, in person its kind of milky.

Here you can kind of see the haze on the belly, again, its milky in person

Here you can a couple more tiny spots, and loose scales. The bigger looking, not so round spots appear to be scales hanging loose.

 

[HumbleFish]

I'm not entirely sure this is ich.

Some questions: When was the Royal Gramma added? When was the last fish added? Do you QT? Any other fish exhibiting symptoms? Any heavy breathing, or are any of the fish acting reclusive or avoiding direct light?

 

[JoeVandal49]

It was added week and half to two weeks ago.

He was the last fish added. He was added at the same time as the tree stripe damsel.

No Heavy breathing. No other symptoms on any other fish. All seem healthy, are eating, and are active.

The only fish that is acting reclusive is m clown Goby, but he has done that from the start, and when i do see him he looks healthy.

Unfortunately i have not quarantined these fish. I now know the true importance. I have the 4 fish, tailspot blenny, clown goby, three stripe damsel, and the royal gramma.

55g tank. HOB equipment.

useing api test kit

ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates 5

corals, inverts, and all fish appear healthy, and even this gramma appears healthy minus the tissue issues.

I also have a peppermint shrimp that often hangs in the same crevice that this gramma sleeps in

I did have a long tneticle nem that i was forced to rehome last week since he was not settling in my tank. I did notice this fish in the tenticles a couple times while he nem was still in tank. Dont know if that could have anything to do with it.

 

[HumbleFish]

I did have a long tneticle nem that i was forced to rehome last week since he was not settling in my tank. I did notice this fish in the tenticles a couple times while he nem was still in tank. Dont know if that could have anything to do with it.

What you are seeing is consistent with an anemone sting. I'm not 100% sure that's all this is, but for now I would just keep a close eye on the RG (and all your other fish) to see what happens next. Not enough conclusive evidence to QT/treat at this point; IMHO.

 

[JoeVandal49]

I thought that could be a possibility,

But i rehome my nem on the 7th i believe, so it has been close to a week since he has been in the tank.

Can it take that long for tissue damage to show up?

Thanks so much for your responses HumbleFish!

 

[HumbleFish]

I thought that could be a possibility,

But i rehome my nem on the 7th i believe, so it has been close to a week since he has been in the tank.

Can it take that long for tissue damage to show up?

It's possible. It's also possible that this is a disease of some sort which will eventually manifest further (and more conclusive) symptoms. That's what you want to be on the look out for. But IMO, a lot of those white marks look too big to be a parasitic infection, and what's on the tail/fin may just be Lymphocystis (a harmless virus).

However, the "haze" thing is concerning - that could be marine velvet, Brooklynella, or even the beginnings of a bacterial infection. The problem is it could also just be from the anemone. Time will tell; it will either clear up, or get worse/spread to other fish. At the very least, I would start soaking his food in vitamin supplements (Selcon, Zoecon, Vita-chem).

 

[JoeVandal49]

It's possible. It's also possible that this is a disease of some sort which will eventually manifest further (and more conclusive) symptoms. That's what you want to be on the look out for. But IMO, a lot of those white marks look too big to be a parasitic infection, and what's on the tail/fin may just be Lymphocystis (a harmless virus).

However, the "haze" thing is concerning - that could be marine velvet, Brooklynella, or even the beginnings of a bacterial infection. The problem is it could also just be from the anemone. Time will tell; it will either clear up, or get worse/spread to other fish. At the very least, I would start soaking his food in vitamin supplements (Selcon, Zoecon, Vita-chem).

The large irregular white marks on the body are actually what look like loose scales, and they are only on one side of the body.

I was most concerned about the haze as well. Its mostly on the underside belly area, but goes up slightly on the side with the loose scales.

I cant remember if it was velvet or brook, but i was reading, and one of them spreads very quickly and can wipe out a population within a few days i believe, or am i mistaken on that?

When i get off work today im going to get the hospital tank up and running, and then ill do some more research on the listed diseases.

I will also start the soaking of supplements.

 

[HumbleFish]

I cant remember if it was velvet or brook, but i was reading, and one of them spreads very quickly and can wipe out a population within a few days i believe, or am i mistaken on that?

Both can, but velvet usually kills faster. Brook is mostly only seen on clownfish, but that's not true 100% of the time.

 

[JoeVandal49]

Thanks Humble Fish.

So im assuming if the haze progresses on the Gramma, or if i see any other indicators on the other fish i should pull all fish and begin treatment immediately.

What sort of recovery would the display tank need to go through assumeing it was something like Velvet.

Is Velvet like ich in that a tank would need to remain fallow, or is it something that once all fish are cured then they are ok to go back into the display?

Thanks so much for your help. I will do all the research i can as soon as i get home and onto my personal PC.

ETA: After looking at discripstion on Live Aquaria, i am now less concerned that it is Velvet, but i am certainly not adept at diognosis. Ill hope for the best. Live Aquaria states a 4 week fallow period if it was indeed Velvet. Is this correct?

 

[HumbleFish]

I believe the fallow period for velvet is 6 weeks (snorvich would know for sure). If this is velvet, other fish should start showing symptoms in the next few days.

 

[JoeVandal49]

Are there any dangers to just going ahead and treating?

I have them in a 55g with live rock, sand, and a zoa colony.

I got bit by the bug pretty hard and am already planning a large inwall setup in my basement since we are currently in the process of remodeling it anyways.

I was planning on turning the 55 gallon into a QT/treatment tank anyways after setting up the large display tank. I havent decided on exact size for the new tank, but it will be 300+ gallons, so a larger QT tank will be needed for larger fish.

My thoughts are maybe i should just pull the live rock, sand, inverts, and corrals from the 55, place them into a small tank just to keep everything alive while i build the new setup, and get the fish healthy, then transfer everything over into the new large display tank when everything is ready.

I would just leave the two powerheads, lights, heater, and HOB marineland filter on the back of the 55, and just keep them for the permanent QT/treatment setup.

Im thinking that may be the best and easiest way to go at this point since i dont have much in the 55g, and eventually was going to break it down in the not so long future as a QT tank.

Im sure i could fit all the sand, rock, corals and inverts into a 20g tank for temporary holding until everything is ready.

Does this sound like a premature idea? are their any downsides to just going ahead and treating this like something bad and treating it?

I want my fish to live, and i have three small girls who are very sensitive to loss of life. Im more concerned with the life of the fish at this point than i am breaking down the tank.

 

[JoeVandal49]

so got home just a bit ago. The RG is actually looking better to me inexperienced eye. The scales that were hanging are gone. Must have fallen off completely.

The "haze has not appeared to spread, and looks slightly better, although the haze which was kind of white is more of a dull tan color today, kind of like dead skin looking color is the best i can describe it. its kind of on the underbelly still, kind of surrounding the anus, and goes up the side slightly, appears to be the same size, maybe resessed slightly, but deffinately not grown. It almost looks like dead skin peeling is the best way i can describe it.

I saw him poop. poop looks normal. He is still acting normal. Very social, since i got him he always greets me right up close at the glass, no different today, no other fish show signs, and all are eating.

Should i hold off on QT/treatment at this point?

Sorry for all the questions, just really want to do the best i can for my fish.

 

[snorvich]

I believe the fallow period for velvet is 6 weeks (snorvich would know for sure).

Correct.

 

[snorvich]

so got home just a bit ago. The RG is actually looking better to me inexperienced eye. The scales that were hanging are gone. Must have fallen off completely.

The "haze has not appeared to spread, and looks slightly better, although the haze which was kind of white is more of a dull tan color today, kind of like dead skin looking color is the best i can describe it. its kind of on the underbelly still, kind of surrounding the anus, and goes up the side slightly, appears to be the same size, maybe resessed slightly, but deffinately not grown. It almost looks like dead skin peeling is the best way i can describe it.

I saw him poop. poop looks normal. He is still acting normal. Very social, since i got him he always greets me right up close at the glass, no different today, no other fish show signs, and all are eating.

Should i hold off on QT/treatment at this point?

Sorry for all the questions, just really want to do the best i can for my fish.

Which I greatly appreciate. If the behavior of the fish seems normal (no reclusiveness, no sensitivity to light, no hanging near the water returns, continued good appetite)I am inclined towards an anemone sting. Both velvet and brook progress quickly so watch carefully for any behavioral change.

 

[snorvich]

I got bit by the bug pretty hard and am already planning a large inwall setup in my basement since we are currently in the process of remodeling it anyways.

[soakbox] In that case, develop a good quarantine protocol. My blog has one you can use as a pattern or develop one of your own. Success in this hobby is risk management and going slowly. Good lessons to teach your children as well. [/soapbox]

 

[JoeVandal49]

Thanks Snorvich and Humblefish. You guys have been great.

Snorvich, whats the link to your blog? i would love to check it out.

I am home all weekend, so i will continue to watch diligently.

 

[snorvich]

Thanks Snorvich and Humblefish. You guys have been great.

Snorvich, whats the link to your blog? i would love to check it out.

I am home all weekend, so i will continue to watch diligently.

On the left side, under my username is a link to my blog. But here it is in a different way. Ignore the Profilux articles as they will not be useful unless you use that type of controller. The remainder may be interesting, however.

 

[JoeVandal49]

Ok, so fish are still acting normal, but i do believe i am seeing some blotches on my tailspot blenny. very small, but appear to be there.

Im going ahead and breaking down the 55 into a 20 gallon, then im going to use the 55g as a hospital tank.

I order cupramine. And Prazi pro. I will order all the other recomended medications to keep on hand next week.

Im planning on treating with cupramine first, as that seems to treat both Ich and Velvet.

I have read mixed reviews on if it will treat for flukes.

Will cupramine likely treat all likely parasites that this may be outside of Brook?

If after treatment, the fish appear healthy, should i go ahead and also treat with Prazipro after?

I have been reading none stop, but admit i am a bit overwhelmed at this point with all the varying reviews, advice, etc. on the internet.

 

[HumbleFish]

Im planning on treating with cupramine first, as that seems to treat both Ich and Velvet.

I have read mixed reviews on if it will treat for flukes.

It does not. Prazipro is your best bet for flukes.

Will cupramine likely treat all likely parasites that this may be outside of Brook?

All external parasites, except Brook (mostly seen in clowns) and Uronema marinum (mostly seen in chromis). Cupramine may or may not treat Uronema; but I've never been able to save a fish from that no matter what I've used.

If after treatment, the fish appear healthy, should i go ahead and also treat with Prazipro after?

Yes, Prazipro is minimally invasive so it's a good idea to treat all fish with it, IMO.

 

[JoeVandal49]

Thanks Humblefish, you have been a big help.

How long after cupramine treatment should i wait to start prazi treatment?

Also, should i treat for a full 4 weeks with cupramine?