What am I missing?

[cb684]

Hello all,
Although the parameters are stable for more than 6 weeks (see bellow), and the fish are doing well, I apparently cannot keep any LPS, SPS or anemone in my system for more than one week. They invariably die. Any thoughts?

System age: 4 months
Display tank: 120 g 48"x31"x18"
Sump: ~ 50 g
Skimmer: SRO 5000 RECIRCULATING EXTERNAL PROTEIN SKIMMER (reef octopus)
Biopellets reactor: BIOCHURN 120R BIOPELLET RECIRCULATING REACTOR (reef octopus) about 2 lb of biopellets on it.

Sump is 3 x 20 g aquariums:

1st (step) aquarium:
Display Aquarium water return
Skimmer (input and output)
Biopellet reactor (input and output)
Auto top off system (water level sensor + Reverse osmosis system output controlled by Neptune apex)

2nd (step) aquarium:
refugium 20 Lb miracle mud
Grapefruit size ball of Chaetomorpha sp.

3rd (step) aquarium:
20 Lb of about 1 year-old live-rock
Heater
About 1 Lb of activated carbon, 1/2 Lb of Cuprisorb, 1/2 Lb of Purigem in a small eiheim canister filter
circulation pump (always on)

Dysplay tank:
120 lb of 4 months old live rock (80 Lb tonga + 40 Lb pukani).
2 to 4 inches of coarse aragonite sand
2 Gibão recirculating pumps with (JBWave synchronous dual controller (specifically designed to control two Jebao WP10, WP25, WP40, or WP60 series powerheads in any combination)

4 small Ocellaris sp
One medium yellow tang
One medium blue powder tang
One Lawnmower blenny
8 Gobys
2 Electric blue damsels
2 peppermint shrimp
1 Red banded pistol shrimp
50 Small and medium hermit
50 Nassarius snails
1 Psychedelic Mandarinfish

Light:
Dysplay tank: 2 Ecotech radion gen 3 (9hs 14K at 60%)
Refugium: 1 13W 6.5K spiral compact fluorescent bulb (~ 13 hs on when display tank is off)

Tests data:
Salinity: 1.026
Temperature: 79.8 F
Salifert NH4: 0
Salifert NO3: 1
Salifert NO2: 0
Salifert dKH: 8.6
Salifert Ca: 420
Salifert Mg: 1,340
Hanna meter PO4: 0.03
pH: 8.18
I2: 0.01
Si: 0
Sr: 14

Other:
Probes were calibrated recently.
Air for the skimmer is coming from outside (hose though the wall)
Water change: about 30 Gal every 2 weeks
Hanna instrument Total disolved solids of RO system water: 4 ppm

 

[Xavibear]

Your system isn't mature enough for an anemone.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why all the cuprisorb?

Do things like snails or shrimp survive?

 

[Richocet83]

Are all of the coral from the same source (LFS)? What's happening to them once in the display? Bleaching? Tissue Necrosis? Etc...

 

[cb684]

Ok. Great questions!
Xavibear, I have been reading and listening to other people talking about system maturation. But it frustrates me not having a measurable variable to tell if a system is mature or not. All measurable chemical that appeared to be important to tell if the system is stable appear to be within healthy range. So I will send the question back to you, what chemically will make my system mature that I am missing?
Randy, Great question! I lost numerous snails, mostly Ceriths and Nerites, also lost two starfish, and one emerald crab. But at the same time, I have a lot of other snails, hermits, a few shrimp and a couple of crabs that are doing well... I tried to measure copper, but the lower detectable limit of the test (salifert) was to high. I might try to call salifert and ask if I could use a spectrophotometer to read the results, that might help. But the truth is that I thought I saw a trace of color on the test tube, when I ran it, and since it would possibly explain my problems, I added the curprisorb to the system (about a week ago).
Richocet83, They came from different e-stores (vividaquarium, liveaquaria, unique corals) and from a small LFS here in town. About the lesions, I am not sure how to identify tissue necrosis in corals. The SPS appeared to bleach in 2 or 3 days after adding them in the tank. The LPS (mostly frogspawns and one green star polyp never really fully extended their polyps and took about 2 to 3 weeks to die. Do you have any reliable literature to read about coral pathology?
Thank you,
CB

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But you never had any known copper exposure?

 

[cb684]

No. Just the loss of invertebrates, and the faintly tinted test...
I just took back to the LFS a Green Star Polyp that I bought yesterday. After dripping acclimation for about one hour, I placed it about 34" from the light. It stayed opened for about 2 hours and then most of the polyps retracted. This morning, when the light turned on only a few polyps were out. And even those were very short.
I took it back and I am planning to try again in a week... But I am running out of ideas of what could be wrong or what I could do to fix it.
About tree weeks ago I did four water changes in a row (every day for four days). The rationale was that if there was something toxic that would dilute it out. Apparently it did not work... So now I am relying on the activated carbon and on the cuprisorb to, if it is a harmful substance, clear it out.
What really intrigues me is how fast all those invertebrates died even with all major parameters within adequate range.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Instead of the cuprisorb, a polyfilter can be both a good export of copper, and also diagnostic as it can turn blue at levels that kits won't detect.

Are you acclimating new creatures to the salinity and temp?

 

[cb684]

I am doing drip acclimation with the containers in the main tank so it also equilibrates the temperature.
About the polyfilter. I understand that some poly are pretreated with solutions that contain copper and for that reason won't help with copper as much. A while ago I used "Poly-Fil Fiberfill" (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Poly-Fil-Fiberfill-5-lb-Box/33397323) to remove clay from my pond and it worked well. Do you think that would work? Is there any brand that you would recommend?
Thank you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The only one that I know of that binds copper is the one that, at least in the past, preloaded it with some copper. Still, folks find them useful in problem situations.
Ignores its claims, many of which aren't likely true:

http://www.marinedepot.com/Poly_Fil...Media-Poly_Bio_Marine-PB1111-FIFMMEPM-vi.html

Other than these things, I don't see what you should do differently.

 

[dkeller_nc]

A couple of thoughts:

Your lights are extremely powerful, and your tank is relatively shallow (18"). Depending on how far from the water's surface these lights are mounted, you may have way too much, particularly for new specimens that may have been more dimly illuminated at the dealers.

Corals can go from intense light to lower light without too much immediate adverse consequences. But going from dim to intense will kill most photosynthetic symbionts very quickly (a few days).

2 pounds of bio-pellets sounds like an awful lot for your system. Personally, I'd remove the bio-pellets and wait one week, then introduce a few hardy soft corals like zoas and/or GSP on the sand in your tank, away from directly under the lights. The intent of bio-pellets is just carbon dosing, and it is definitely possible to kill corals by over-doing carbon dosing, particularly if you're dosing carbohydrates. Since the object of carbon dosing is control of nitrates, and a reasonable level of nitrates isn't toxic to most marine life, discontinuing the bio pellets for a while for troubleshooting purposes won't hurt anything.

You also mention an R.O. system - is it R.O. only, or does it contain deionization?

 

[SC Reefaholic]

Might not be a chemistry thing. I don't know Radions but are you sure there are not multiple issues that overlap. The coral issues may be due to lighting. Are you light acclimating them? Many come from lower light environments (LFS, Shipping, etc) and you might be burning them. Depending on the type of anemone that might be the answer as well. The starfish and snail/crab thing might just be lack of food in a newer tank. That's my only guesses.

 

[cb684]

Thanks a lot for the feedback.

Randy, I will give it a try. Let's see what happens.

dkeller_nc, There was a typo in the tank dimensions. The tank is actually 48"x18"x31H, and the lights are about 9" from the top of the aquarium. So, when I placed the corals in the bottom, they were actually at about 38" from the light.
About the biopellets I have been asking myself these questions. But, since I still had NO4=1 and PO4=0.03 wouldn't this be an indication that it is not too much dosing? I thought the only problem in using them was to strip some important nutrients (i.e. NO4 and PO4) from the system. And I was ready to add back a little of skimmate if that was the case. Don't you agree?
About the RO system, the TDS of the water coming out of the system is about 4ppm. Does that answer your question? The system has also activated carbon and .2um filter. (http://www.amazon.com/iSpring-RCB4T...=UTF8&qid=1401630313&sr=8-13&keywords=ispring).
SC_Reefaholic, as I mentioned the distance from the corals and the light was about 38" of the corals, at 60% of a 14K setting. This setting was an adaptation from others in this forum. Do you still think is too much? Where would you start?

Thank you all for the replies again.

Camilo.

 

[SC Reefaholic]

Wow. dkeller types faster than me. Guess we were saying the same thing at the same time. I dont know Radions or what their power is compared to my setup so I couldn't really give you advice on that. Just a guess at what might be happening. Maybe someone in the lighting section who has Radions might be able to help. It still might be a chemistry thing but just keep your options open.

 

[dkeller_nc]

No, it isn't just depletion of nutrients that folks have reported with excessive carbon dosing - the actual presence of too much carbon in the water seems to cause problems. Whether this is an actual toxic effect of the organic molecule itself or just potentiation of too much/wrong kind of bacteria is open for debate.

Based on your updated info, I rather doubt your lighting is too strong.

I'd do two things: first, discontinue carbon dosing (biopellets) and any additives whatsoever other than fish food and possibly calcium/alkalinity until you get better success with corals (i.e., start simple).

Second, you really should install a stand-alone deionization cartridge on your RO system, at least for reef tank use. Your system was designed for drinking water use, and because people don't require ultra-pure water (and some people erroneously think that drinking ultra-pure water is harmful), there was no need in adding the expense of a DI cartridge.

But what would be completely OK for people, such as 2 ppm or so of ammonia, isn't OK for a reef tank. You can get stand-alone cartridges and media for your system inexpensively from Bulk Reef Supply. And, if you're on municipal water that uses chloramine for disinfection, and you use your RO system for household use as well as your tank, you might consider adding a so-called "chloramine removal" carbon pre-filter set-up.

 

[cb684]

Great ideas...
I decided to go with a double canister pre filter filled with Seachem carbon media prior to my RO system, and a double canister filter filled with deionization media after the RO system. Just in case there is some chloramine and to reduce the ions on the final water. It might be an overkill but I am ok with that.
Now about the biopellets, dkeller_nc, do you know of where I could learn more about it? I was under the impression that the point of using biopellets when compared to other carbon dosing techniques, was that it would not release the carbohydrates but only the dead bacteria that grew using the media carbohydrates. And then that would be picked up by the skimmer.
I might need to educate myself further in the subject...

 

[saltyair]

Do you have a grounding probe?

 

[cb684]

Thanks saltyair,
I did not have, but I just purchased one. Will install it soon...

 

[Pife]

Have you been dumping the water from your fish purchases into your tank?

 

[dkeller_nc]

I was under the impression that the point of using biopellets when compared to other carbon dosing techniques, was that it would not release the carbohydrates but only the dead bacteria that grew using the media carbohydrates. And then that would be picked up by the skimmer.

Yep, that's the idea. However, exactly how insoluble the material (and its contaminants, and small molecules the bacteria cleave off) is in seawater, to my knowledge, hasn't been studied. By the way, I used the word "carbohydrate" as a general stand-in for bio-pellets. However, there's a lot of different possibilities for "bio-pellets", so what you're using may not technically be a carbohydrate.

Regardless, there are a lot of us that run reef aquariums with no bio-pellets, and there is at least one academic study that suggests that a soluble carbon overdose can kill coral.

Since you're having issues and the effect of not running bio-pellets or carbon dosing is a likely slow rise in nitrates which aren't toxic unless they really get out of hand, and if your pellets are similar to what BRS sells you're using approximately twice the recommended amount, I'd discontinue them until you can get a handle on what's happening.

In other words, start with the basics: seawater, rock, light, skimming, good water source, stable salinity and water chemistry. Given the high bioload (that's a lot of fish for a 120g), you may eventually need to use carbon dosing and/or GFO to assist your skimmer and water changes with nutrient management, but that's after you determine why you can't keep corals. The only "additive" that I would keep running is a reasonable amount of well-rinsed GAC (perhaps 2 cups in a system your size, changed once every couple of weeks).